Discussion:
OT - Gas to hit 4.00
(too old to reply)
Grant Shipley
2005-08-31 20:14:57 UTC
Permalink
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm

Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families? Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?

We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.

Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
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Dallin Jones
2005-08-31 20:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families? Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
Maybe we should think about how he signed an order allowing us to tap
into the National Fuel Reserves. He knows about it.... But being as
they need to tap into the reserves... That's bad... Very bad.
Post by Grant Shipley
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?
We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
They can and do... Toyota, Honda and Volkswagon offer them...
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/gasmileage/

Remember... Gas prices are based on the standard supply and demand.
Thanks to some nice Hurricanes, nearly 80% of our sources of gas have
been shut down... Not just slowed down... SHUT DOWN. Then we look at
all the wonderful people around here using the gas like it is water.
Hello? Supply is down, and demand is higher than ever! Want the prices
to go down? Use less gas. Use the bus system. Buy a bike. Or buy a
hybrid car that gets stellar mileage. Reports say that a a Prius was
modded to run at an average 110mpg.
(http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000147053641/) It is as simple as
that. Use less gas, get the supply up, and make the demand low!

Dallin Jones
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Eric Jensen
2005-08-31 20:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallin Jones
Remember... Gas prices are based on the standard supply and demand.
Thanks to some nice Hurricanes, nearly 80% of our sources of gas have
been shut down... Not just slowed down... SHUT DOWN. Then we look at
all the wonderful people around here using the gas like it is water.
Hello? Supply is down, and demand is higher than ever! Want the prices
to go down? Use less gas. Use the bus system. Buy a bike. Or buy a
hybrid car that gets stellar mileage. Reports say that a a Prius was
modded to run at an average 110mpg.
(http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000147053641/) It is as simple as
that. Use less gas, get the supply up, and make the demand low!
Dallin Jones
I agree. People complain about gas prices, but then we see the latest
vehicle fad is gas gussling SUVs, big and loud trucks and commercial
Hummers.

Eric

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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jensen
I agree. People complain about gas prices, but then we see the latest
vehicle fad is gas gussling SUVs, big and loud trucks and commercial
Hummers.
If you read this, you might believe Americans are just stupid. How in
the world can people complain about gas prices and also want to purchase
"gas gussling SUVs, big and loud trucks and commercial Hummers."

BTW: "gussling" isn't a word. You probably meant "guzzling."

No, I don't believe the owners of Tahoes (yeah,you know who you are),
Suburbans, Hummers, Excursions, Expeditions, Exclamations, etc. have any
real concern about gas prices or fuel economy.

Now, here's some cud to chew on: As high as gas prices are, they still
have not matched the equivalent prices during the OPEC oil embargo in
1973. Up until this point, rising gas prices have NOT caused a
significantly noticeable affect on the economy. That is, the cost of
gasoline has not (yet) caused the average American consumer to forego
consumption of goods in order to continue to afford the purchase of
gasoline.
--
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Iodynamics: Linux solutions - Web development - Business connectivity
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Grant Shipley
2005-08-31 20:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallin Jones
They can and do... Toyota, Honda and Volkswagon offer them...
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/gasmileage/
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml
We all know these numbers are inflated to begin with.

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html

"
But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati,
Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed
that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. ....

After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.
"

I have also read the batteries only last 4 years and then need to be
replaced with an average cost of 4,000.
Post by Dallin Jones
Remember... Gas prices are based on the standard supply and demand.
Thanks to some nice Hurricanes, nearly 80% of our sources of gas have
been shut down... Not just slowed down... SHUT DOWN. Then we look at
all the wonderful people around here using the gas like it is water.
Hello? Supply is down, and demand is higher than ever!
Demand is higher because most people are forced to live in the burbs
in order to afford a home for their family.
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James Clawson
2005-08-31 20:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Tapping into the reserves will accomplish little - it is mainly a
political decision - we have lost more than 40 % of our current
refinery capacity due to this hurricane. How shall we convert that
oil in to gasoline? We had insufficient refining capacity before the
storm. I only hope that refineries affected by this storm can be
brought back online soon, and that people will see the need to build
more.

The one wise move the President has made on this front was to
establish a program to build refineries on the military bases being
closed by the Base Closure and Realignment Committee/Pentagon.
Post by Dallin Jones
Post by Grant Shipley
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families? Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
Maybe we should think about how he signed an order allowing us to tap
into the National Fuel Reserves. He knows about it.... But being as
they need to tap into the reserves... That's bad... Very bad.
Post by Grant Shipley
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?
We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
They can and do... Toyota, Honda and Volkswagon offer them...
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/gasmileage/
Remember... Gas prices are based on the standard supply and demand.
Thanks to some nice Hurricanes, nearly 80% of our sources of gas have
been shut down... Not just slowed down... SHUT DOWN. Then we look at
all the wonderful people around here using the gas like it is water.
Hello? Supply is down, and demand is higher than ever! Want the prices
to go down? Use less gas. Use the bus system. Buy a bike. Or buy a
hybrid car that gets stellar mileage. Reports say that a a Prius was
modded to run at an average 110mpg.
(http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000147053641/) It is as simple as
that. Use less gas, get the supply up, and make the demand low!
Dallin Jones
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Steve
2005-08-31 20:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Problem is that the entire Bush/Cheney fortunes were built on Oil, and
still is largely dependent on it.
To vote in a president who makes money on oil, is to invite policies
that cause oil to go up in price.
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families? Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?
We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
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James Clawson
2005-08-31 20:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Untrue. Both have divested themselves of any stocks or other
investments into organizations or companies tied into oil.
Post by Steve
Problem is that the entire Bush/Cheney fortunes were built on Oil,
and still is largely dependent on it.
To vote in a president who makes money on oil, is to invite
policies that cause oil to go up in price.
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families? Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?
We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Problem is that the entire Bush/Cheney fortunes were built on Oil, and
still is largely dependent on it.
To vote in a president who makes money on oil, is to invite policies
that cause oil to go up in price.
I understand where you're coming from, but it's a fallacious concept. If it
were true, it would be grounds for impeachment.

The truth is that because Cheney and Bush have industry experience in the
energy industry, they have a much better idea of what needs to be done to
understand and resolve the issues related to energy production in this country.

Why is it that no new oil refineries have been built in this country in the
last 20 years? Why is it very few power plants have been constructed in
recent years? Why is it there have been no new nuclear power plants built?
Why is it that companies are not being allowed to tap newly discovered oil
reserves in Alaska?

This is why: Environmentalist wacko liberals.

*pulls Asbestos mask over head*
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fozz-***@public.gmane.org is Doran L. Barton, president, Iodynamics LLC
Iodynamics: Linux solutions - Web development - Business connectivity
"Serving suggestion: Defrost."
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justin gedge
2005-09-01 21:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Problem is that the entire Bush/Cheney fortunes were built on Oil, and
still is largely dependent on it.
To vote in a president who makes money on oil, is to invite policies
that cause oil to go up in price.
Bush's fortunes may have been made in oil [like many other people who
have made fortunes on oil in TX, AL, WY etc... ]

I've heard comments like this before-- recent events suggest otherwise.


yesterday's news [unfiltered -- strait from whitehouse.gov]

1] *Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman Announced That The Strategic
Petroleum Reserve Will Be Used To Help Fulfill Demand For Oil.*
Refineries that are short on supplies of crude oil will have access to
supplies from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to help avert a disruption
in the supply of gasoline to drivers and businesses across the country.

2] *EPA Has Issued Fuel Waivers To Expedite Relief and Recovery.* EPA
has issued temporary waivers to make additional supplies of gasoline and
diesel fuel available in those areas of the country with shortages of
specific fuel blends required under the Clean Air Act.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050831-4.html



Neither one of these actions would keep the prices higher. Yeah-- the
price will probably still go up as there is a shortage in supply-- but
the actions listed should help minimize the shortage-- not add too it.
On top of this-- more wells have been opened up in WY and other parts of
the country last year [I remember reading an article in the Wall Street
Journal a few months ago and the number I remember was like 5000+ drill
sites had been approved last year in Wyoming alone]-- I suspect that
within the next year or so prices should be back down around 1.20/gal or
so. I could be wrong-- but I suspect that after approving more wells
and refineries-- the supply side will be a little easier to come by in
this country.

Justin Gedge




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Ryan Nielsen
2005-08-31 20:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families? Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?
There are some pros, at least IMHO:

Maybe people will have to start using bikes, public transportation,
walking, etc. I think we are spoiled and lazy, and thus unhealthy. My
family only owns one car. We have thought about getting another one
plenty of times, but feel it would just be a waste of money and
resources. It forces us out of our comfort zone.

Maybe people will start using alternative fuels. Our car is a hybrid
Compressed Natural Gas/Gas. We have saved a lot of money in the last
little while. It can be inconvenient to fill up at times, but maybe
this incident will help improve things.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to show another point of
view.

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Richard Esplin
2005-08-31 21:03:47 UTC
Permalink
You have piqued my curiosity. Would you mind answering these questions:

What make and model is your car?
Did you buy your car with the hybrid adapter?
If you didn't, how much did it cost you to add the hybrid capability to your
car?
Where do you fill up?
How much does it cost you to drive a mile on natural gas?
Where did you find a mechanic who will work on your car?
Besides the inconvenience, is there any other downsides to making the
modification?

Thanks,

Richard Esplin

On Wednesday 31 August 2005 14:32, Ryan Nielsen wrote:
<snip>
Post by Ryan Nielsen
Maybe people will start using alternative fuels. Our car is a hybrid
Compressed Natural Gas/Gas. We have saved a lot of money in the last
little while. It can be inconvenient to fill up at times, but maybe
this incident will help improve things.
<snip>
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Ryan Nielsen
2005-08-31 21:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Esplin
What make and model is your car?
Did you buy your car with the hybrid adapter?
If you didn't, how much did it cost you to add the hybrid capability to your
car?
Where do you fill up?
How much does it cost you to drive a mile on natural gas?
Where did you find a mechanic who will work on your car?
Besides the inconvenience, is there any other downsides to making the
modification?
Thanks,
Richard Esplin
<snip>
Post by Ryan Nielsen
Maybe people will start using alternative fuels. Our car is a hybrid
Compressed Natural Gas/Gas. We have saved a lot of money in the last
little while. It can be inconvenient to fill up at times, but maybe
this incident will help improve things.
We got it at the state surplus in the Draper/Bluffdale area about 2/3
years ago. It was a hybrid already. You get a tax break on it as
well. It is a '98 Ford Contour, but I think you can work the hybrid in
to quite a few different cars. I found a lot of info by speaking with
Questar. Also, if you really want to get crazy and pay a bunch of
money, you can get an adapter for your home gas and hook up the car at
night to refill. The Questar people were really nice.


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Steve
2005-08-31 21:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Hey does anyone know if Questar still offers a subsidy for CNG kits?
Before I left a few years ago, they were offering a credit on your NG
bill of $1000 paid out over about 4-5 years.
Anyways might be good to check into for anyone interested, last I
checked CNG kits were $3,000 after install.
Post by Ryan Nielsen
Post by Richard Esplin
What make and model is your car?
Did you buy your car with the hybrid adapter?
If you didn't, how much did it cost you to add the hybrid capability
to your car?
Where do you fill up?
How much does it cost you to drive a mile on natural gas?
Where did you find a mechanic who will work on your car?
Besides the inconvenience, is there any other downsides to making the
modification?
Thanks,
Richard Esplin
<snip>
Post by Ryan Nielsen
Maybe people will start using alternative fuels. Our car is a hybrid
Compressed Natural Gas/Gas. We have saved a lot of money in the last
little while. It can be inconvenient to fill up at times, but maybe
this incident will help improve things.
We got it at the state surplus in the Draper/Bluffdale area about 2/3
years ago. It was a hybrid already. You get a tax break on it as
well. It is a '98 Ford Contour, but I think you can work the hybrid
in to quite a few different cars. I found a lot of info by speaking
with Questar. Also, if you really want to get crazy and pay a bunch
of money, you can get an adapter for your home gas and hook up the car
at night to refill. The Questar people were really nice.
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Mitch Anderson
2005-08-31 22:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Ryan Nielsen wrote:

We got it at the state surplus in the Draper/Bluffdale area about 2/3
years ago. It was a hybrid already. You get a tax break on it as
well. It is a '98 Ford Contour, but I think you can work the hybrid in
to quite a few different cars. I found a lot of info by speaking with
Questar. Also, if you really want to get crazy and pay a bunch of
money, you can get an adapter for your home gas and hook up the car at
night to refill. The Questar people were really nice.


For what its worth... My grandpa has a Mid '80's Chevy pickup that is a
hybrid of propane/gas... Not sure where he had the conversion done(I
believe it was done at a shop in Lehi, but not positive) but he just
fills up at any gas station that will refuel propane tanks. I'm not
positve on the milage either, but I believe its better than it is on
gas, it has less power however.

Mitch
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Ryan Nielsen
2005-08-31 21:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Esplin
What make and model is your car?
Did you buy your car with the hybrid adapter?
If you didn't, how much did it cost you to add the hybrid capability to your
car?
Where do you fill up?
How much does it cost you to drive a mile on natural gas?
Where did you find a mechanic who will work on your car?
Besides the inconvenience, is there any other downsides to making the
modification?
Thanks,
Richard Esplin
<snip>
Post by Ryan Nielsen
Maybe people will start using alternative fuels. Our car is a hybrid
Compressed Natural Gas/Gas. We have saved a lot of money in the last
little while. It can be inconvenient to fill up at times, but maybe
this incident will help improve things.
Sorry, I forgot to answer all your questions. I have found it very
expensive to fix, and hard to fill up at times, so it isn't as nice as
it may sound, but it has been a great benefit through these high
prices. Butterfield Ford in Sandy area has a CNG department. You might
be able to find someone closer and cheaper though. One negative, is
that if your CNG has problems to make you not pass safety and emissions,
then you have to get that part fixed. I don't think the US is really
efficient with it all yet, but it is definitely growing. That is why I
think these gas prices will help the CNG field a lot more.

I haven't figured it out down to the penny, but I can get to St. George
for about 10 bucks. That is on the Freeway obviously, where you get
better mileage.

The state has stations for it's cars all along I-15 every 50 miles or
so. I fill up at a few stations. There is one in Springville, one in
Orem, and some private ones, if you go about getting a card. Do a
search for "CNG station locator" or something like that.

I think CNG makes the car a bit slower on acceleration.
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Kenneth Burgener
2005-08-31 22:05:58 UTC
Permalink
... I don't think the US is really
efficient with it all yet, but it is definitely growing. That is why I
think these gas prices will help the CNG field a lot more.
American's are terrible with change. Always waiting till everyone else
has changed, before changing your self, even if the change is better.
That is why I think we still have gallons of milk instead of liters of milk.


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Jonathan Ellis
2005-08-31 22:08:53 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:05:58 -0600, "Kenneth Burgener"
Post by Kenneth Burgener
American's are terrible with change. Always waiting till everyone else
has changed, before changing your self, even if the change is better.
That's called "avoiding the bleeding edge." There's good reasons for
taking that approach, ones that are hardly unique to Americans.

-J
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Roberto Mello
2005-08-31 22:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:05:58 -0600, "Kenneth Burgener"
Post by Kenneth Burgener
American's are terrible with change. Always waiting till everyone else
has changed, before changing your self, even if the change is better.
That's called "avoiding the bleeding edge." There's good reasons for
taking that approach, ones that are hardly unique to Americans.
Changing from gallons to liters (or gallon bottles to liter cartons) is
not that revolutionary or dangerous of a change :-)

-Roberto
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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roberto Mello
Changing from gallons to liters (or gallon bottles to liter cartons) is
not that revolutionary or dangerous of a change :-)
I don't know how many actually remember, but President Reagan was in favor of
the country changing its standard of measurement from the english system to
the more internationally observed (and scientifically observed) metric
system. For a brief time during the mid-1980s, there were many areas
throughout the country that had MPH and km/h speed limit signs posted on
freeways. It was during the 80s that cars were required to have both systems
of measurement on their spedometers.

Then, after the Reagan administration ended, this movement was quietly rolled
back.

I don't understand it. Most of the people I know who are not college educated
think the metric system is stupid and difficult to learn. Of course, Roberto
is an example of someone who has had to deal with the stupidity and
difficulty of coming the other direction and having to learn the english
system of measurement after having grown up with metric. It's MUCH more
difficult to find logic and/or reason in the english measurement system.

There are definite advantages to converting a society from english to metric,
but it WOULD be a revolutionary change in the U.S. would take years or
decades to implement. Consider your average car- even cars manufactured by
foreign companies still have tires on them which are measured using english
units. Consider the roadway infrastructure and the expense of converting that
all over - and all the maps and GPS devices, etc. etc.

I would say, yeah, it's worth it, but there are a lot of (stupid,
uneducated?) people involved in public policy in this country who won't see
it the way I do.
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Andy Bradford
2005-08-31 23:43:02 UTC
Permalink
I don't understand it. Most of the people I know who are not college
educated think the metric system is stupid and difficult to learn.
Most of the people I know who are college educated don't understand the
metric system. Only chemists and physicists seem to have a firm grasp.
But the majority of majors don't help a person know anything about the
metric system.

The problem is lack of use. Since nobody uses metrics, nobody
understands it. Even though mathematically we may understand how
superior it is, without the touch of experience to build upon, people
resort to mathemtical calculations to figure out that 1kilo of wheat is
2.2lbs, etc...

How did you learn the English measurement system? You used cookbooks,
instructions, and other examples in real life to learn. Just like you
learned English. Sure you studied it at school, but school didn't teach
you how to speak, only how to write (and possibly speak) with correct
grammar. The same is true of learning just about anything; experience
counts for a lot of the assimilation of knowledge.
There are definite advantages to converting a society from english to
metric, but it WOULD be a revolutionary change in the U.S. would take
years or decades to implement.
This is true. People are basically lazy and won't change unless forced
too or unless given good enough reasons to do so. Its sad but true. This
is also why the majority of people use Windows---habit is a strong
force.
I would say, yeah, it's worth it, but there are a lot of (stupid,
uneducated?) people involved in public policy in this country who
won't see it the way I do.
I'm not sure that public policy is really the way to make people learn
metrics, but I for one wouldn't mind if the road signs changed from MPH
to KPH.

Try this for fun. Switch all your scales and digital tools in the home
to the metric scale. See how long before your significant other barks at
you about it.

Andy
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Jayce^
2005-09-01 02:07:29 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Doran Barton
It's MUCH more
difficult to find logic and/or reason in the english measurement system.
Actually, There is good mathematic reason for the existing system.
Fractions. Basically, it's a whole lot easier to find common
denominators in the imperial measurement system, and thusly do more
complex division in ones head.

Personally, I have a calculator now, and hate math, so I'm all for going
metric, but I just wanted to point out that there is actually good
reasons for the seemingly strange numbers our existing system uses.

- --
Jayce^
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Andy Bradford
2005-09-01 02:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Actually, There is good mathematic reason for the existing system.
Fractions. Basically, it's a whole lot easier to find common
denominators in the imperial measurement system, and thusly do more
complex division in ones head.
In a practical sense, it is a lot easier for me to weigh 100 grams of
flour and double or triple the recipe than it is to measure triple or
double 1 1/ 3 cups of flour.

I don't often take a recipe and cut it in half, although finding half of
100 is much easier (at least for me) than finding half of 1 1/3 cups.
Maybe if a recipe were written as 4/3 cups, but who measures in that way
when dealing with fractions? I certainly haven't seen a recipe written
as requiring 4/3 cups flour.

Maybe I'm missing your point... Could you provide an example?

Andy
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Jayce^
2005-09-01 03:44:06 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Andy Bradford
Actually, There is good mathematic reason for the existing system.
Fractions. Basically, it's a whole lot easier to find common
denominators in the imperial measurement system, and thusly do more
complex division in ones head.
In a practical sense, it is a lot easier for me to weigh 100 grams of
flour and double or triple the recipe than it is to measure triple or
double 1 1/ 3 cups of flour.
I don't often take a recipe and cut it in half, although finding half of
100 is much easier (at least for me) than finding half of 1 1/3 cups.
Maybe if a recipe were written as 4/3 cups, but who measures in that way
when dealing with fractions? I certainly haven't seen a recipe written
as requiring 4/3 cups flour.
Maybe I'm missing your point... Could you provide an example?
Here's a couple of opinions from the first page in a poorly formed
google search.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Metrication/proportionality_ergonomics.htm
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/weight/
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s11563.htm

Like I mentioned before, I'm not a big advocate of imperial measurment,
but it does have it's pro's.

- --
Jayce^
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Andy Bradford
2005-09-02 23:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jayce^
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Metrication/proportionality_ergonomics.htm
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/weight/
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s11563.htm
Interesting opinions on the topic. I can't say I agree with most of
them. The readability of a measuring tape might have some merit. The
argument that Imperial measurements are more ``human'' oriented seem
logical to some extent.

Andy
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Gary Thornock
2005-08-31 23:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roberto Mello
Post by Jonathan Ellis
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:05:58 -0600, "Kenneth Burgener"
Post by Kenneth Burgener
American's are terrible with change. Always waiting till
everyone else has changed, before changing your self, even
if the change is better.
That's called "avoiding the bleeding edge." There's good
reasons for taking that approach, ones that are hardly unique
to Americans.
Changing from gallons to liters (or gallon bottles to liter
cartons) is not that revolutionary or dangerous of a change :-)
Neither is it a particularly useful one. It is an expensive
one, though. So long as the current system works, and people
understand it, there's no compelling reason to switch. "It's
what the rest of the world does" is *not* a compelling reason.

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Kenneth Burgener
2005-08-31 22:37:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
That's called "avoiding the bleeding edge." There's good reasons for
taking that approach, ones that are hardly unique to Americans.
-J
I hardly think that the metric system is "bleeding edge". It has been
around for how many centuries?

It would seem to me that all high-tech and semi-tech industries use
metric. For example doctors use "CC", computer technicians use "MHZ", etc.

But the common person prefers to have there speed signs saying MPH
instead of KPH, and even $4.00 per gallon, instead of $1.05 per liter.

I just thought of a great marketing ploy. We could start advertising
saying, gas prices are now $1.05 per liter instead of $4.00 per gallon!
People would be lining the streets to get gas. :-)

Kenneth


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Jonathan Ellis
2005-08-31 23:01:55 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:37:11 -0600, "Kenneth Burgener"
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Post by Jonathan Ellis
That's called "avoiding the bleeding edge." There's good reasons for
taking that approach, ones that are hardly unique to Americans.
-J
I hardly think that the metric system is "bleeding edge". It has been
around for how many centuries?
You clipped off the part I was replying to, which was "American's [sic]
are afraid of change... [rant on change-fearing luddites, blah blah
blah.]"

As for a grass-roots incrementalist approach to switching measuring
systems in particular, hey, have at it.

-Jonathan
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Andy Bradford
2005-09-01 03:10:21 UTC
Permalink
American's are terrible with change. Always waiting till everyone
else has changed, before changing your self, even if the change is
better.
I don't know if this is symptomatic of Americans only. Our own
Declaration of Independence said it best:

``... accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more
disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves
by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.''

Of course it was in reference to suffering the evils of too much
government, but the same can be true of all things which require change.
That is why I think we still have gallons of milk instead of liters of milk.
But why do we have 2 liter bottles of water, carbonated drinks, etc...?

Andy
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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Nielsen
Maybe people will start using alternative fuels. Our car is a hybrid
Compressed Natural Gas/Gas. We have saved a lot of money in the last
little while. It can be inconvenient to fill up at times, but maybe
this incident will help improve things.
Just run your car on hydrogen extracted from water!

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm
--
fozz-***@public.gmane.org is Doran L. Barton, president, Iodynamics LLC
Iodynamics: Linux solutions - Web development - Business connectivity
"Dealers will hear car talk at noon"
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Kenneth Burgener
2005-08-31 22:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doran Barton
Just run your car on hydrogen extracted from water!
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm
Have you seen hydrogen burn? If you could find a way to store it so it
were not so volatile this would be an awesome way to drive. Can't wait
for the first head on collision, and see the hydrogen explosion.



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Daniel C.
2005-08-31 22:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Have you seen hydrogen burn? If you could find a way to store it so it
were not so volatile this would be an awesome way to drive. Can't wait
for the first head on collision, and see the hydrogen explosion.
Actually no, it would be a really bad way to drive. Getting hydrogen
out of water requires more energy than you get from burning the
hydrogen.
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Jayce^
2005-09-01 02:06:59 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Post by Kenneth Burgener
Post by Doran Barton
Just run your car on hydrogen extracted from water!
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm
Have you seen hydrogen burn? If you could find a way to store it so it
were not so volatile this would be an awesome way to drive. Can't wait
for the first head on collision, and see the hydrogen explosion.
I wish I could find the links right now, but they have gotten around
this. GM actually has a fleet of cars now that run on hyrdogen, quite
efficient, and of course, clean. A lot of people are against it though,
for various reasons, much like other alternative fuels that have
promise. Apparently they've gotten over a lot of the expenses in
creation of the hydrogen as was brought up in response to your message.
That side I don't know much about at all though, so google away for
opinions on the validity of that.
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Hans Fugal
2005-08-31 20:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families? Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?
We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
I recommend we not go here. I do have two words to say to all the people
who hate everything about the oil/iraq situation: nuclear power.

If this flame war gets out of hand I promise to remove the list
reply-to.
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..O http://hans.fugal.net | Debian, vim, mutt, ruby, text, gpg
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Eric Jensen
2005-08-31 20:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Fugal
I recommend we not go here. I do have two words to say to all the people
who hate everything about the oil/iraq situation: nuclear power.
Might give the added bonus of encouraging safer driving practices too.
I know I might be a bit more worried about having a head one with a
nuclear powered car. ;)

Eric
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Grant Shipley
2005-08-31 20:46:15 UTC
Permalink
The problem is that we are to reliant on oil. If we were unable to
get gas/oil - our society would collapse. This is a problem that
needs to be address in one way or another.

If trucking companies could not get gas, we would all die from
starvation because wal-mart would not have groceries.. We are not our
grandparents that knew how to farm the land. Most people could not
get corn to grow EVEN if they had seeds to plant. And if they could
get corn to grow on the .10 acres they own, they would not know how to
store it.
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Grant Shipley
2005-08-31 20:47:23 UTC
Permalink
And just for you gee whiz collection.... I just got this IM from a
friend of mine in Atlanta:

(14:45:33) Chad: gas now over 3 dollars a gallon
(14:45:41) Chad: it jumped 50 cents over last 3 hours
(14:45:57) Chad: my boss called me and said 1/2 the gas stations are out of gas

dont know if its true or not.
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Jonathan Ellis
2005-08-31 20:55:33 UTC
Permalink
http://www.local10.com/news/4918480/detail.html

-J
Post by Grant Shipley
And just for you gee whiz collection.... I just got this IM from a
(14:45:33) Chad: gas now over 3 dollars a gallon
(14:45:41) Chad: it jumped 50 cents over last 3 hours
(14:45:57) Chad: my boss called me and said 1/2 the gas stations are out of gas
dont know if its true or not.
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Dennis
2005-08-31 22:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
The problem is that we are to reliant on oil. If we were unable to
get gas/oil - our society would collapse. This is a problem that
needs to be address in one way or another.
If trucking companies could not get gas, we would all die from
starvation because wal-mart would not have groceries.. We are not our
grandparents that knew how to farm the land. Most people could not
get corn to grow EVEN if they had seeds to plant. And if they could
get corn to grow on the .10 acres they own, they would not know how to
store it.
Funny you mention corn:
http://muhlesteins.blogspot.com/2005/08/we-grew-some-corn.html

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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
The problem is that we are to reliant on oil. If we were unable to
get gas/oil - our society would collapse. This is a problem that
needs to be address in one way or another.
Another problem is that we are to (sic) reliant on water and breathable
air. If we were unable to get water/air - our society would collapse
(literally). This is a problem that needs to be address (sic) in one way
or another.

I mean, come on! Can you imagine someone writing a column in a newspaper
in the early 1800s: "We are too reliant on steam! If we were unable to
get steam, our society would collapse!"

Or, imagine in 30 years: "We are too reliant on hydrogen!" or "We are
too reliant on zero-point energy!"
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"A new swimming pool is rapidly taking shape since the contractors have
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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doran Barton
I mean, come on! Can you imagine someone writing a column in a newspaper
in the early 1800s: "We are too reliant on steam! If we were unable to
get steam, our society would collapse!"
Or better: "We are too reliant on horses! If we were unable to get horses,
our society would collapse! Something needs to be done to address this!"
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Iodynamics: Linux solutions - Web development - Business connectivity
"Dealers will hear car talk at noon"
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James Clawson
2005-08-31 23:00:01 UTC
Permalink
I concur. My grandparents are incredibly self reliant - they have a
great talent for growing food and maintaining their homes, vehicles,
etc. They live in Beaumont Texas and have been flooded out of their
home several times, have had their home damaged by a tornado, and
have had to survive terrible financial loss due to these issues and
also to health problems. Yet, they have always been able to take
care of themselves. They make or grow most of what they need to
survive, and what they do have to buy, they make last for many years.

I remember when gas was rationed in the 1970s and my parents modified
their car to run on a blend of gasoline and ethanol. We were able to
survive that situation. As I filled my car up at $2.74 yesterday
afternoon, I wondered how hard it would be to make the same
modification to my vehicle....
Post by Grant Shipley
The problem is that we are to reliant on oil. If we were unable to
get gas/oil - our society would collapse. This is a problem that
needs to be address in one way or another.
If trucking companies could not get gas, we would all die from
starvation because wal-mart would not have groceries.. We are not our
grandparents that knew how to farm the land. Most people could not
get corn to grow EVEN if they had seeds to plant. And if they could
get corn to grow on the .10 acres they own, they would not know how to
store it.
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Greg Felix
2005-08-31 20:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
You can get more than 30mpg in your car if you have the amount of money
it takes to do any of those things you listed above. (Even a fraction of
that money will do) It's the same answer to the question: 'why doesn't
every last home have a fiber-optics connection? We have the technology!'

I won't disagree that there are many political reasons behind rising
prices. Nor will I disagree that more should be done to increase
transportation efficiency. But you're barking up the wrong tree(s) and
in the wrong forum.

Has there ever been a PLUG-OT mailing list?

Felix


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James Clawson
2005-08-31 20:37:08 UTC
Permalink
I do not wish to start a flame war, but I wonder if people who make
comments like this have read the US Constitution lately. No one in
the Federal Government or the governments of the respective states
has the responsibility or the AUTHORITY to control the price of
gasoline or of any other consumer product, or to impose MPG
restrictions on automobiles. The high cost of gasoline can only be
addressed by building more refineries and by drilling for oil within
the US.
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families? Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?
We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
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Andy Bradford
2005-08-31 21:06:37 UTC
Permalink
I do not wish to start a flame war, but I wonder if people who make
comments like this have read the US Constitution lately.
It seems to me that lately the U.S. Constitution is more of a political
playing card that gets used whenever it is convenient. It has become
more of a living document than the actual ``law of the land.''
No one in the Federal Government or the governments of the respective
states has the responsibility or the AUTHORITY to control the price
of gasoline or of any other consumer product, or to impose MPG
restrictions on automobiles.
If only we lived in a truly free market, this wouldn't sound like
economic theory... How about we start by eliminating the rediculously
high gasoline tax?
The high cost of gasoline can only be addressed by building more
refineries and by drilling for oil within the US.
Agreed. When can we start in Alaska?

Andy
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Jacob Fugal
2005-08-31 21:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Bradford
No one in the Federal Government or the governments of the respective
states has the responsibility or the AUTHORITY to control the price
of gasoline or of any other consumer product, or to impose MPG
restrictions on automobiles.
If only we lived in a truly free market, this wouldn't sound like
economic theory... How about we start by eliminating the rediculously
high gasoline tax?
I've been remembering something I read recently in the paper (just
before Katrina). I don't have the sources they used off the top of my
head, so feel free to correct or doubt. Anyways, they had a chart that
compared US gas prices to european prices. The interesting bit is they
broke down the pre-tax and tax components of the price. Across the
board, raw prices were about equal, with the US being cheapest by a
small margin (5-10%). But taxes in almost any european country were
nearly %100, doubling the price of gas. The taxes in the US were about
10-15%. As a result, US gas is several dollars cheaper per gallon. And
that savings is in taxes, not raw price.

Jacob Fugal
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Richard Esplin
2005-08-31 21:21:56 UTC
Permalink
This was my experience while in Europe. Much of the increased taxes are used
to subsidize mass transit, making it an affordable and practical alternative
to driving. Somehow the higher price didn't bother me as much when I had the
deluded hope of the government doing something constructive with the money,
instead the empty feeling that comes from helping an oil baron afford a
bigger yacht (or worse).

I would rather have us choose higher gas prices through taxation, then have it
forced on us by insatiable demand (because of our cultural lifestyle) during
a time of limited supply.

Richard Esplin

On Wednesday 31 August 2005 15:11, Jacob Fugal wrote:
<snip>
Post by Jacob Fugal
I've been remembering something I read recently in the paper (just
before Katrina). I don't have the sources they used off the top of my
head, so feel free to correct or doubt. Anyways, they had a chart that
compared US gas prices to european prices. The interesting bit is they
broke down the pre-tax and tax components of the price. Across the
board, raw prices were about equal, with the US being cheapest by a
small margin (5-10%). But taxes in almost any european country were
nearly %100, doubling the price of gas. The taxes in the US were about
10-15%. As a result, US gas is several dollars cheaper per gallon. And
that savings is in taxes, not raw price.
Jacob Fugal
<snip>
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Jonathan Ellis
2005-08-31 21:28:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Esplin
I would rather have us choose higher gas prices through taxation, then have it
forced on us by insatiable demand (because of our cultural lifestyle) during
a time of limited supply.
I saw an interesting suggestion some time ago by some editorialist
(possibly Friedman, not sure). He proposed the federal government
impose a sliding gas tax, such that normal price + tax = fixed number,
with the funds going towards investing in other energy sources.

I'm skeptical that the government should be making the decision of where
to invest money given their horrible track record in that area, but at
least it was more creative than most government-oriented solutions. :)

-Jonathan
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C. Ed Felt
2005-09-03 16:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
Post by Richard Esplin
I would rather have us choose higher gas prices through taxation, then have it
forced on us by insatiable demand (because of our cultural lifestyle) during
a time of limited supply.
I saw an interesting suggestion some time ago by some editorialist
(possibly Friedman, not sure). He proposed the federal government
impose a sliding gas tax, such that normal price + tax = fixed number,
with the funds going towards investing in other energy sources.
I'm skeptical that the government should be making the decision of where
to invest money given their horrible track record in that area, but at
least it was more creative than most government-oriented solutions. :)
-Jonathan
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"Hydrogen also can be used in *modified internal-combustion engines*
with essentially pollution-free emissions. It can be produced in two
basic ways: first, by steam reformation of natural gas or other
hydrocarbon fuels, including coal and biomass fuels from agricultural
feedstocks or waste materials; and second, by electrolysis, using
electricity supplied by a wide variety of sources, including renewable
fuel sources. While electrolysis is ideal, it's not economically
competitive at this time."
Reference:
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national/?srv=parser&act=display&tf=/features/truthabout/gas/alternative1.tmpl
<http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national/?srv=parser&act=display&tf=/features/truthabout/gas/alternative1.tmpl>

Put up some solar panels on your roof:
http://www.ata.org.au/basics/bassolar.htm

Get a wind generator if you really want to be sure you have enough power:
http://www.oksolar.com/n_cart/search.asp?cat=Wind%20Generators

Get a hydrogen generator:
http://www.domnickhunter.com/product_desc.asp?product=221&group=19&industry=0&pageNo=1
<http://www.domnickhunter.com/product_desc.asp?product=221&group=19&industry=0&pageNo=1>

Convert your car to Hydrogen:
http://www.clean-air.org/conversion_kit_response.htm

*NEVER BUY GAS AGAIN.

*The technology is all ready here, many are too lazy or too caught up in
day to day life to do anything about it.
*
*There are a few caveats, like the fact that our industry doesn't
currently care to move our entire infrastructure towards better energy
models such as this one.

I actually have a friend starting a business doing just what I have
listed above. This means no paying for power from the electric company
and never paying for gas. He says he can do it all for around $15,000
to $30,000. I wonder how the payments on a loan of that size and cost
of maintenance of such a system compare to the average persons monthly
gas and power bills? I hope the next time I build a house, I can wrap
something like this in to the loan. Even if the price is a wash, it
sure would be nice to have complete control over my own power needs.

It will be interesting to see how many people and industries start
switching to these alternatives as gas prices and pollution controls rise,

Like one of my old network theory professors once said about network
protocols: "most people don't upgrade until they have to". Case in
point: how long has IP V6 been around now?

-Ed Felt
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Steve
2005-08-31 21:26:38 UTC
Permalink
I dunno about drilling in Alaska, but I just came from spending 4 years
living in Wyoming and lemme tell you something.
From the time a new well gets permitted, until the time it can actually
become productive is approx 3-5 years!
This information comes to me from my ex-wife, who handles engineering
and permitting for alot of the companies trying to get wells up out there.
So if you figure that 9 months ago, 3,000 new well permits were issued,
then it will be at least 2 and 1/2 more years before we see much if any
benefit.
My own opinion is to quit whining about higher gas prices and do
something about it.
Up until 2 weeks ago, I drove a gas guzzling grandma grocery go getter
(88 buick with a V8). After that last tank of gas, ran out I literally
walked away from it and hopped on the bus. Bus goes just about
everywhere you need in this county anyways.
Hey come to think of it, the car may still be sitting there, it's a red
88 buick with wyoming plates, sitting on 800 North in Orem across the
street from the hospital. If you want it let me know. ;)
Post by Andy Bradford
I do not wish to start a flame war, but I wonder if people who make
comments like this have read the US Constitution lately.
It seems to me that lately the U.S. Constitution is more of a political
playing card that gets used whenever it is convenient. It has become
more of a living document than the actual ``law of the land.''
No one in the Federal Government or the governments of the respective
states has the responsibility or the AUTHORITY to control the price
of gasoline or of any other consumer product, or to impose MPG
restrictions on automobiles.
If only we lived in a truly free market, this wouldn't sound like
economic theory... How about we start by eliminating the rediculously
high gasoline tax?
The high cost of gasoline can only be addressed by building more
refineries and by drilling for oil within the US.
Agreed. When can we start in Alaska?
Andy
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Jacob Fugal
2005-08-31 21:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Bus goes just about everywhere you need in this county anyways.
Which county was that again? I'm with you that we should invest in
public transportation rather than driving everywhere ourselves. But
public transportation in Utah County is lacking, to say the least.

Jacob Fugal
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Gary Thornock
2005-08-31 21:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacob Fugal
Bus goes just about everywhere you need in this county
anyways.
Which county was that again? I'm with you that we should
invest in public transportation rather than driving everywhere
ourselves. But public transportation in Utah County is lacking,
to say the least.
I'd have to agree with that statement. A couple of months ago, I
tried out UTA's automated trip planning tool on their web site,
looking for how to get from my house (near BYU) to my office (in
Orem). UTA's answer: It Can't Be Done.

I was expecting it to take an hour and a half or more, but even
given my low opinion of UTA in general, I was still surprised
that it was /that/ bad.

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Jonathan Ellis
2005-08-31 21:54:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:50:44 -0700 (PDT), "Gary Thornock"
Post by Gary Thornock
Post by Jacob Fugal
Bus goes just about everywhere you need in this county
anyways.
Which county was that again? I'm with you that we should
invest in public transportation rather than driving everywhere
ourselves. But public transportation in Utah County is lacking,
to say the least.
I'd have to agree with that statement. A couple of months ago, I
tried out UTA's automated trip planning tool on their web site,
looking for how to get from my house (near BYU) to my office (in
Orem). UTA's answer: It Can't Be Done.
That's probably just a reflection on the talent the UTA hired to write
their trip planner. My brother spent the past couple years getting
around on the UTA + biking between stops, mostly in Provo/Orem.

-Jonathan
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Gary Thornock
2005-08-31 23:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
Post by Gary Thornock
I'd have to agree with that statement. A couple of months
ago, I tried out UTA's automated trip planning tool on their
web site, looking for how to get from my house (near BYU) to
my office (in Orem). UTA's answer: It Can't Be Done.
That's probably just a reflection on the talent the UTA hired
to write their trip planner. My brother spent the past couple
years getting around on the UTA + biking between stops, mostly
in Provo/Orem.
The UTA's trip planner isn't perfect, I know. But, even when
I got the schedules and put together a route by hand, the best
I could come up with still took two hours to get from my house
to work. I can make it in 45 minutes on a *bike*. The UTA's
"service" in Utah County is pathetic.

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Andy Bradford
2005-09-01 03:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Which county was that again? I'm with you that we should invest in
public transportation rather than driving everywhere ourselves. But
public transportation in Utah County is lacking, to say the least.
Do you need transportation? How much will you pay me to take you where
you want to go? :-) For the right price, I can give you the
transportation you want now. The reason why it doesn't currently exist
is because nobody (with money to invest) thinks it is a worthwhile
investment.

Andy
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Jeremy Bowers
2005-08-31 21:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Did you used to own a 6 gear black Camaro?
Post by Steve
I dunno about drilling in Alaska, but I just came from spending 4 years
living in Wyoming and lemme tell you something.
From the time a new well gets permitted, until the time it can actually
become productive is approx 3-5 years!
This information comes to me from my ex-wife, who handles engineering
and permitting for alot of the companies trying to get wells up out there.
So if you figure that 9 months ago, 3,000 new well permits were issued,
then it will be at least 2 and 1/2 more years before we see much if any
benefit.
My own opinion is to quit whining about higher gas prices and do
something about it.
Up until 2 weeks ago, I drove a gas guzzling grandma grocery go getter
(88 buick with a V8). After that last tank of gas, ran out I literally
walked away from it and hopped on the bus. Bus goes just about
everywhere you need in this county anyways.
Hey come to think of it, the car may still be sitting there, it's a red
88 buick with wyoming plates, sitting on 800 North in Orem across the
street from the hospital. If you want it let me know. ;)
Grant Shipley
2005-08-31 21:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Clawson
No one in
the Federal Government or the governments of the respective states
has the responsibility or the AUTHORITY to control the price of
gasoline or of any other consumer product, or to impose MPG
restrictions on automobiles.
Hmm... Government can't control consumer products? Last time I heard
it was illegal to buy or use any product made in Cuba.

For your trivia collection: The fine for an American having a cuban
cigar in their posession, even while in another country, is 55,000.
If you smoke it?... who knows, maybe they will sentence you to death.
:)

You may also be tried for treason and aiding the enemy during a time of war.
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James Clawson
2005-08-31 23:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
Post by James Clawson
No one in
the Federal Government or the governments of the respective states
has the responsibility or the AUTHORITY to control the price of
gasoline or of any other consumer product, or to impose MPG
restrictions on automobiles.
Hmm... Government can't control consumer products? Last time I heard
it was illegal to buy or use any product made in Cuba.
but this is not the government regulating price - this is the
government refusing the import of products from an enemy nation.
This falls specifically in the realm of one of the three primary
powers given to the Federal Government in the Constitution. These
are defense, negotiation of treaties and trade agreements with
foreign powers, and the ability to regulate interstate commerce.
Post by Grant Shipley
For your trivia collection: The fine for an American having a cuban
cigar in their posession, even while in another country, is 55,000.
If you smoke it?... who knows, maybe they will sentence you to death.
:)
You may also be tried for treason and aiding the enemy during a time of war.
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Andy Bradford
2005-09-01 02:49:23 UTC
Permalink
but this is not the government regulating price - this is the
government refusing the import of products from an enemy nation.
This sure is a case of regulating price if I ever saw one. They may not
have done it with the intention to regulate the price, but the simple
fact that they are keeping products off the US market that would
otherwise be in competition with US produced products means that prices
here are artificially higher due to this imbalance. Remember, someone on
this list did mention supply in demand... it applies here as well unless
I am mistaken.

Oh, and if you think the government is clean when it comes to trading
with the enemy you might want to look into ``Merchants of Death: a study
of the international armament industry.''

Andy
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Andy Bradford
2005-09-01 03:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Remember, someone on this list did mention supply in demand... it
applies here as well unless I am mistaken.
Of course I meant supply vs demand.

Andy
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Jayce^
2005-09-01 02:05:20 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by James Clawson
I do not wish to start a flame war, but I wonder if people who make
comments like this have read the US Constitution lately. No one in the
Federal Government or the governments of the respective states has the
responsibility or the AUTHORITY
This is a key point, why is it we expect the government to do all the
work/payout of the tasks listed below? It *shouldn't* do that, that's
not the job of the government.
Post by James Clawson
Post by Grant Shipley
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
families?
Yes, he has, but the fact is he is the last person who really should do
anything about it. *IF* we believe that the government should put it's
hands into things and mess this up (as it has been) then the legislature
should be doing something about it. This last century has shown an
increasing belief that the office of the president should be enacting
'his' policy, when he should be just enacting the policies of the
legislative branch.

Point where you will for blame, they're all guilty.
Post by James Clawson
Post by Grant Shipley
Or -- maybe they don't care as they get money from the oil
and auto companies to get them elected and tax the crap of out gas to
pay their salary? Or maybe its because they have state owned cars
where they don't have to pay for gas?
We can put a man on the moon.
We can send a probe to land on mars.
We can invent nuclear weapons.
We can fly in the air.
We can cure most medical problems.
We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.
We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
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Jeff Schroeder
2005-08-31 20:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
Heh, I'll bite. :)
Post by Grant Shipley
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
It's hilarious, in a sad way, how Americans gripe so loudly about gas
prices that are less than *half* of what they are in Europe. I don't
think any country in the world pays less for commercial gasoline, while
at the same time no country in the world has as many drivers burning up
that gas at furious rates.

I'm not a fan of high gas prices either, but I see this as a Good Thing
for three reasons:

1) It'll stimulate (finally) the growth of alternative energy sources.

2) It'll cause all the people driving enormous three-ton Explursions and
whatever other SUV's to think twice about why they need such a mammoth
vehicle to drive a half-mile to the video store.

3) It'll make people get out and actually walk or bike places for a
change.
Post by Grant Shipley
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
Well, there are hybrid cars getting 50 MPG, and souped-up ones (granted,
with some expensive modifications) getting 200+ MPG. The technology is
there, but it's either being suppressed by the oil companies (who have
a vested interest in selling more of their product) or not implemented
by the auto companies (because of the added cost).

Excuse me while I adjust my tinfoil hat now. ;)

$0.02,
Jeff

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Shane Hathaway
2005-08-31 20:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Schroeder
I'm not a fan of high gas prices either, but I see this as a Good Thing
1) It'll stimulate (finally) the growth of alternative energy sources.
2) It'll cause all the people driving enormous three-ton Explursions and
whatever other SUV's to think twice about why they need such a mammoth
vehicle to drive a half-mile to the video store.
3) It'll make people get out and actually walk or bike places for a
change.
3.5) Those of us who like to bike regardless of gas prices will have a
lot more room on the road. ;-)

Shane
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Jeff Schroeder
2005-08-31 20:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
Heh, I'll bite. :)
Post by Grant Shipley
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
It's hilarious, in a sad way, how Americans gripe so loudly about gas
prices that are less than *half* of what they are in Europe. I don't
think any country in the world pays less for commercial gasoline, while
at the same time no country in the world has as many drivers burning up
that gas at furious rates.

I'm not a fan of high gas prices either, but I see this as a Good Thing
for three reasons:

1) It'll stimulate (finally) the growth of alternative energy sources.

2) It'll cause all the people driving enormous three-ton Explursions and
whatever other SUV's to think twice about why they need such a mammoth
vehicle to drive a half-mile to the video store.

3) It'll make people get out and actually walk or bike places for a
change.
Post by Grant Shipley
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
Well, there are hybrid cars getting 50 MPG, and souped-up ones (granted,
with some expensive modifications) getting 200+ MPG. The technology is
there, but it's either being suppressed by the oil companies (who have
a vested interest in selling more of their product) or not implemented
by the auto companies (because of the added cost).

Excuse me while I adjust my tinfoil hat now. ;)

$0.02,
Jeff
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Jonathan Ellis
2005-08-31 20:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
We have what's called a market economy. Right now, increased demand
worldwide is driving prices up.

If gas gets too expensive, people will find alternatives and/or use less
(e.g. by bicycling, taking the bus, or telecommuting to work instead of
driving). Reduced demand will bring the price down. (You do realize
that gas has been going for far more than $4/gal in Europe for _years_,
right? Case in point.)

Some things aren't very susceptible to reducing demand like this, but
gasoline isn't one of them.

Demanding the government intervene and try to accomplish something the
free market is inherently better at (setting prices) is tempting but
foolish.

-Jonathan
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Grant Shipley
2005-08-31 20:54:51 UTC
Permalink
On 8/31/05, Jonathan Ellis <jonathan-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
(You do realize
Post by Jonathan Ellis
that gas has been going for far more than $4/gal in Europe for _years_,
right? Case in point.)
Yes of course. I was a missionary at one time. :)

I also realize people in other countries (australia for example) can
get anwhere very fast via public transportation which makes it
feasible for them. Something we are not good at.
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Von Fugal
2005-08-31 20:59:27 UTC
Permalink
* Grant Shipley [Wed, 31 Aug 2005 at 14:54 -0600]
Post by Jonathan Ellis
(You do realize
Post by Jonathan Ellis
that gas has been going for far more than $4/gal in Europe for _years_,
right? Case in point.)
I also realize people in other countries (australia for example) can
get anwhere very fast via public transportation which makes it
feasible for them. Something we are not good at.
And we'll get good at it, too, as necessitated by higher and higher gas
prices.

Von Fugal
Andy Bradford
2005-09-01 02:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Von Fugal
* Grant Shipley [Wed, 31 Aug 2005 at 14:54 -0600]
Post by Grant Shipley
I also realize people in other countries (australia for example) can
get anwhere very fast via public transportation which makes it
feasible for them. Something we are not good at.
And we'll get good at it, too, as necessitated by higher and higher
gas prices.
I seriously hope not. Public transportation fits right into plank number
6 of the communist manifesto. Is it true that most countries that have
``good'' public transportation are also to a large exent socialist
countries? Or at least heading towards socialism?

It would seem to me that socialists would hate the automobile because of
the freedom it provides the owner. I suppose you could argue that a car
requires care, maintenance, etc... but since when does owning anything
mean it doesn't involve responsibility?

Andy
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Shane Hathaway
2005-08-31 20:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
Demanding the government intervene and try to accomplish something the
free market is inherently better at (setting prices) is tempting but
foolish.
Agreed. The government can take steps to smooth rough times like this,
but it has relatively little power to control the free market.

Shane
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Andy Bradford
2005-08-31 21:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Demanding the government intervene and try to accomplish something
the free market is inherently better at (setting prices) is tempting
but foolish.
Agreed. The government can take steps to smooth rough times like this,
but it has relatively little power to control the free market.
The government should never take steps to ``smooth rought times'' as it
only has the power to make things worse. The New Deal is one of the
greatest example of governmental bungling America has ever seen. Let the
market set the prices, that is what it is good at as Jonathan suggests.

Andy
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Shane Hathaway
2005-08-31 23:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Bradford
Demanding the government intervene and try to accomplish something
the free market is inherently better at (setting prices) is tempting
but foolish.
Agreed. The government can take steps to smooth rough times like this,
but it has relatively little power to control the free market.
The government should never take steps to ``smooth rought times'' as it
only has the power to make things worse. The New Deal is one of the
greatest example of governmental bungling America has ever seen. Let the
market set the prices, that is what it is good at as Jonathan suggests.
I did not suggest new legislation or price fixing. I suggested the
government should react by:

- advising consumers not to panic

- looking for ways to raise the capacity of other refineries for a short
time

- taking steps to restore refineries in short order

These kinds of reactions require a level of agility that the free market
does not have.

Shane
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Andy Bradford
2005-09-01 02:59:22 UTC
Permalink
I did not suggest new legislation or price fixing. I suggested the
My apologies for misunderstanding what you meant.
- looking for ways to raise the capacity of other refineries for a
short time
What makes you think the government can do any better at this than the
businesses? Remember, the businesses have the customer to cater to. To
whom does the government have to cater? Ever hear the phrase ``Customer
is King?'' The same cannot be said of the people with respect to their
government.

In this case, if the price of crude oil goes to high, and hence the cost
of producing gasoline which gets passed on to the consumer, the consumer
will react by purchasing less or finding alternatives. If companies in
this business want to stay competitive, they will be forced by market
forces to become more efficient or go out of business. If this means
raising the capacity, so be it. No one is forcing consumers to buy oil
based products.
These kinds of reactions require a level of agility that the free
market does not have.
I tend to disagree on this point. I think the market reacts much more
quickly and deftly than any bloated governmental institution can do.

Andy
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Shane Hathaway
2005-09-01 04:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Bradford
In this case, if the price of crude oil goes to high, and hence the cost
of producing gasoline which gets passed on to the consumer, the consumer
will react by purchasing less or finding alternatives. If companies in
this business want to stay competitive, they will be forced by market
forces to become more efficient or go out of business. If this means
raising the capacity, so be it. No one is forcing consumers to buy oil
based products.
*Inertia* is forcing consumers to buy oil based products. People
already live in one place and work in another, and it takes a long time
to change employment or move to a new house. A lot of people are
already living at the edge of their income. If the market changes too
much too quickly, many will fall into poverty, simply because they can
no longer afford to commute.

Thus if you don't want people to starve, you need to have someone
regulating the market to a certain extent. Otherwise real people fall
through the cracks.
Post by Andy Bradford
I tend to disagree on this point. I think the market reacts much more
quickly and deftly than any bloated governmental institution can do.
Yes, but sometimes quick change is exactly what you don't want. You
need someone with authority to react and smooth things out. Case in
point: the 70 foot crater on highway 6 that got repaired in days... by
the government.

Shane
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Jeremy Hansen
2005-08-31 21:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Agreed. The government can take steps to smooth rough times like this,
but it has relatively little power to control the free market.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Grant, but I think his point was that the
Government IS controlling (or influencing) oil prices, not that they SHOULD
do so.

I noticed alot of people responding as though his point was to demand the
government to step in and solve the problem. If I know Grant (and I do) that
is not the case at all. He is calling for the government to stop
manipulating the market for their own benefit. In other words, he is not so
subtly, not so implying that gas prices are part of a global conspiracy to
line the pockets of the wealthy elite at the cost of the average Joe
Citizen. That sounds more like one of Grant's tirades to me ;)

Jeremy
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Dallin Jones
2005-08-31 22:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Hansen
I noticed alot of people responding as though his point was to demand the
government to step in and solve the problem. If I know Grant (and I do) that
is not the case at all. He is calling for the government to stop
manipulating the market for their own benefit. In other words, he is not so
subtly, not so implying that gas prices are part of a global conspiracy to
line the pockets of the wealthy elite at the cost of the average Joe
Citizen. That sounds more like one of Grant's tirades to me ;)
If you are so tired about the Government "manipulating the market for
their own benefit" run for office and fix the problem. We can complain
all we want, but until we start doing something about it, the issue
will never be addressed. How many registered voters voted? How many
poeple could have voted but didn't? How many are on this list that
voted? Averages seem quite low... We need to stop complaining about
the issues and take a more active role in solving them by either
running for office, or by supporting the good people that do run.
Dallin
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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Hansen
I noticed alot of people responding as though his point was to demand the
government to step in and solve the problem. If I know Grant (and I do) that
is not the case at all. He is calling for the government to stop
manipulating the market for their own benefit. In other words, he is not so
subtly, not so implying that gas prices are part of a global conspiracy to
line the pockets of the wealthy elite at the cost of the average Joe
Citizen. That sounds more like one of Grant's tirades to me ;)
Yeah. I agree. Things would have been so much better if the guv'ment had
stopped messing around with the hurricane control network.

Oh man! The last time the US got slammed with a big hurricane like Katrina
was Andrew... in 1992. OMFG! WHO WAS PRESIDENT IN 1992?! OMFG! OMFG! I CAN'T
BELIEVE IT! AAAAGAGHAGHGHGHGHGH!
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Dave Smith
2005-08-31 21:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
Well, I don't know much about miles-per-gallon, but I get about 30
miles-per-kilowatt-hour on my eBike. I can go about 8 miles on a charge
(unless I peddle, and then I can go about 20 miles). It goes about 20mph.
Who can complain? I just bought a normal mountain bike and tossed this kit
on it:

http://wildernessenergy.com/

So far, it has saved me about $30 per month. You can get kits installed in
SLC at a great little shop called EcoMoto:

http://ecomoto.net/

I watch gas prices go up and just giggle while I boogy by on my eBike.

Enjoy!

--Dave
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Stuart Jansen
2005-08-31 21:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
I agree. A hurricane hit yesterday. Bush hasn't made everything
magically better by today. He's a horrible president and probably the
anti-christ!
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Grant Shipley
2005-08-31 21:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Jansen
Post by Grant Shipley
I just had to vent and I know the PLUG loves OT conversations. :)
I agree. A hurricane hit yesterday. Bush hasn't made everything
magically better by today.
Come on now... that wasnt my argument at all. Our gas prices have
been hovering where they are at for a while now.
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J***@public.gmane.org
2005-08-31 21:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Fugal
I recommend we not go here. I do have two words to say to all
nuclear power.
4 more words for me:

Reduce the Gas Tax

Nuclear power will work too. Reserves are only a temporary solution,
originally intended for our tanks in times of war.

Jesse
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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@public.gmane.org
Reserves are only a temporary solution,
originally intended for our tanks in times of war.
Are you talking about crude oil reserves or National Guard reserves?

;-)
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J***@public.gmane.org
2005-08-31 21:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
I dunno about drilling in Alaska, but I just came from
spending 4 years living in Wyoming and lemme tell you something.
From the time a new well gets permitted, until the time it
can actually become productive is approx 3-5 years!
This information comes to me from my ex-wife, who handles
engineering and permitting for alot of the companies trying
to get wells up out there.
So if you figure that 9 months ago, 3,000 new well permits
were issued, then it will be at least 2 and 1/2 more years
before we see much if any benefit.
My own opinion is to quit whining about higher gas prices and
do something about it.
Up until 2 weeks ago, I drove a gas guzzling grandma grocery go getter
(88 buick with a V8). After that last tank of gas, ran out I
literally walked away from it and hopped on the bus. Bus
goes just about everywhere you need in this county anyways.
Hey come to think of it, the car may still be sitting there,
it's a red
88 buick with wyoming plates, sitting on 800 North in Orem
across the street from the hospital. If you want it let me know. ;)
If the bus would only come to my area. I have to whine. :-( In regards
to Alaska, even if it does take 3-5 years, if I remember right Bush was
trying to approve drilling in Alaska about 6 years ago when he came into
office.

Jesse
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Jon Gale
2005-08-31 22:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
Does our government not realize this is killing the average American?
Killing as in death? I think not. It's painful to say the least (my last
fillup was $60+) but I'm surviving as I suspect most of you are. I think it
is just forcing people to re-evaluate their priorities. I can keep my
gas-guzzling Yukon or I can go see 3 crappy movies every month (with
popcorn). Incidentally I have chosen to sell my Yukon in favor of a sweet
Hyundai (oxymoron).

Has the president even made a comment about how this is hurting
Post by Grant Shipley
families?
Don't even get me started on the president. 9/11 = Bush's Reichstag (should
provide some fuel for the flame war)


We can put a man on the moon.


hoax

We can send a probe to land on mars.


hoax

We can invent nuclear weapons.


if by "invent" you mean steal someone else's idea

We can fly in the air.


no we can't - but our airplanes can

We can cure most medical problems.


like AIDS and cancer?

We can now communicate instantly anywhere in the world.


as long as they have a computer and an internet connection

We can watch live sporting events from anywhere in the world.


see above

Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car?


Because you sir, are living the American Dream!

-J
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Andy Bradford
2005-09-01 03:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Don't even get me started on the president. 9/11 ûush's Reichstag
(should provide some fuel for the flame war)
You couldn't be referring to any of this could you:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=Bush+Reichstag&spell=1
Post by Grant Shipley
We can put a man on the moon.
hoax
This is a failure of the market.
Post by Grant Shipley
We can send a probe to land on mars.
hoax
Yet another failure of the market.
Post by Grant Shipley
We can invent nuclear weapons.
if by "invent" you mean steal someone else's idea
Again, here the market failed and required governmental intervention.
Post by Grant Shipley
We can fly in the air.
no we can't - but our airplanes can
This one is borderline failure. Thanks to the government's intervention,
and documents like the Patriot Act, our airlines are now safe.
Post by Grant Shipley
We can cure most medical problems.
like AIDS and cancer?
Again, another failure of the market, I'm still waiting for the
government to provide solutions for these.

.
.
.
Post by Grant Shipley
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car?
Because you sir, are living the American Dream!
It seems the American dream is built on market failures... Thank you for
awakening me to the sense of the dream.

Andy
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Dan Stovall
2005-08-31 22:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
Then why in the hell can't I get more than 30mpg in my car? Maybe
something bigger is at play here ........
Read this. It is incredibly interesting.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/car/one/chi-startingup-special,0,7249692.special

I can remember when my wife and I filled up our car for $.98/gal. Pretty sad.

Dan
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Doran Barton
2005-08-31 22:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Stovall
I can remember when my wife and I filled up our car for $.98/gal. Pretty sad.
Until 2004, the price of a gallon of gasoline has steadily fallen in a
generally linear trend since the invention of the automobile. Sure, there
have been bumps along the way, but generally gas has gotten less expensive.

So, is the bump we're on right now a U-turn on that trend or just a bump on
the way down?
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