Discussion:
Virtual Machine routing On Ubuntu
(too old to reply)
Charles Curley
2010-06-18 00:32:17 UTC
Permalink
I have several VMs on a Ubuntu 9.10 host, and they have networking set
up. I can ssh in to them from the host, but not from other machines, in
spite of having the route set up correctly on the other machines.

I also notice that I can get updates on the VMs (yum, apt, etc.) but
not web pages from the outside world. But I can get web pages from the
host.

So something is filtering the virtual network. What is it and how do I
control it?

Thanks
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Richard Esplin
2010-06-18 01:45:50 UTC
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What virtualization software (hypervisor) are you using? VMWare, VirtualBox, KVM, Xen?

How did you set up the NIC in the hypervisor? NAT vs bridged vs host-only?

In Virtualbox I set up two NICs, one as NAT and one as host-only in order to make my VM available to other VMs, the host, and enable access to the outside world while still protecting it from the host's physical network.

Richard
Post by Charles Curley
I have several VMs on a Ubuntu 9.10 host, and they have networking set
up. I can ssh in to them from the host, but not from other machines, in
spite of having the route set up correctly on the other machines.
I also notice that I can get updates on the VMs (yum, apt, etc.) but
not web pages from the outside world. But I can get web pages from the
host.
So something is filtering the virtual network. What is it and how do I
control it?
<snip>

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Charles Curley
2010-06-18 03:15:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 19:45:50 -0600
Post by Richard Esplin
What virtualization software (hypervisor) are you using? VMWare, VirtualBox, KVM, Xen?
qemu
Post by Richard Esplin
How did you set up the NIC in the hypervisor? NAT vs bridged vs host-only?
It says here, "Forwarding: NAT to any physical device".
Post by Richard Esplin
In Virtualbox I set up two NICs, one as NAT and one as host-only in
order to make my VM available to other VMs, the host, and enable
access to the outside world while still protecting it from the host's
physical network.
What's the difference between NAT and host-only?

I assume that in this context NAT means Network Address Translation,
i.e. the host acts as a firewall and does NATting.

The software I'm using is libvirt 0.7.0.

I also see that from a VM I can ping the host's virtual interface, i.e.
the IF on the virtual network. I can also ping its physical IF, which
is on a separate network.
Post by Richard Esplin
Richard
On Thursday, June 17, 2010 18:32:17 Charles Curley
Post by Charles Curley
I have several VMs on a Ubuntu 9.10 host, and they have networking
set up. I can ssh in to them from the host, but not from other
machines, in spite of having the route set up correctly on the
other machines.
I also notice that I can get updates on the VMs (yum, apt, etc.) but
not web pages from the outside world. But I can get web pages from
the host.
So something is filtering the virtual network. What is it and how
do I control it?
<snip>
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Mike Lovell
2010-06-19 07:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Curley
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 19:45:50 -0600
Post by Richard Esplin
What virtualization software (hypervisor) are you using? VMWare, VirtualBox, KVM, Xen?
qemu
Post by Richard Esplin
How did you set up the NIC in the hypervisor? NAT vs bridged vs host-only?
It says here, "Forwarding: NAT to any physical device".
Post by Richard Esplin
In Virtualbox I set up two NICs, one as NAT and one as host-only in
order to make my VM available to other VMs, the host, and enable
access to the outside world while still protecting it from the host's
physical network.
What's the difference between NAT and host-only?
I assume that in this context NAT means Network Address Translation,
i.e. the host acts as a firewall and does NATting.
The software I'm using is libvirt 0.7.0.
I also see that from a VM I can ping the host's virtual interface, i.e.
the IF on the virtual network. I can also ping its physical IF, which
is on a separate network
Post by Richard Esplin
Richard
On Thursday, June 17, 2010 18:32:17 Charles Curley
Post by Charles Curley
I have several VMs on a Ubuntu 9.10 host, and they have networking
set up. I can ssh in to them from the host, but not from other
machines, in spite of having the route set up correctly on the
other machines.
I also notice that I can get updates on the VMs (yum, apt, etc.) but
not web pages from the outside world. But I can get web pages from
the host.
So something is filtering the virtual network. What is it and how
do I control it?
are you using a gui or wrapper around libvirt to manage your VMs or are
you using the libvirt tools directly? can you see the XML domain
definitions for the VMs? if so, how is the networking configured for the
VMs and on the host? what is the full command line that was used to
invoke the qemu process? `cat /proc/<pid of vm qemu process>/cmdline` to
get that.

as i understand it, the difference between a 'NAT' configuration and a
'host-only' configuration is that the necessary stuff for the host to
perform NAT is done during the network configuration where host-only
doesn't. so in host-only, there are no routes configured for the vms to
reach outside networks automatically.

from your description, it almost sounds like you are configuring
multiple networks. one for each vm and then doing routing on the host
between the vms. if this is how it is done, is ip forwarding enabled on
the host? `cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward` to check. it sounds like
it might not be since you are having trouble getting to the outside
world from your vms. my next guess would be that there are rules in the
iptables firewall that are preventing FORWARD traffic from getting
between the hosts.

these links may also help you in your quest.

http://libvirt.org/formatnetwork.html
http://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Networking

hope that helps

mike

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Charles Curley
2010-06-20 20:37:24 UTC
Permalink
Grumble. I found out that while I can ping from one VM to another I
can't ssh. I also need to use arbitrary ports above 1024.

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 01:40:32 -0600
Post by Mike Lovell
are you using a gui or wrapper around libvirt to manage your VMs or
are you using the libvirt tools directly?
Wrapper, probably virt-manager 0.7.0-3ubuntu1.
Post by Mike Lovell
can you see the XML domain
definitions for the VMs?
I see /etc/libvirt/qemu/<hostname>.xml and they sure look like
configuration files.
Post by Mike Lovell
if so, how is the networking configured for
the VMs and on the host?
This looks like the relevant stanza:

<interface type='bridge'>
<mac address='54:52:00:74:d1:76'/>
<source bridge='virbr0'/>
</interface>
Post by Mike Lovell
what is the full command line that was used
to invoke the qemu process? `cat /proc/<pid of vm qemu
process>/cmdline` to get that.
Hmm, it looks like it's KVM, rather than qemu.
Post by Mike Lovell
as i understand it, the difference between a 'NAT' configuration and
a 'host-only' configuration is that the necessary stuff for the host
to perform NAT is done during the network configuration where
host-only doesn't. so in host-only, there are no routes configured
for the vms to reach outside networks automatically.
Ah. So NAT is the way to go most of the time. Thanks.
Post by Mike Lovell
from your description, it almost sounds like you are configuring
multiple networks. one for each vm and then doing routing on the host
between the vms. if this is how it is done, is ip forwarding enabled
on the host? `cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward` to check. it sounds
like it might not be since you are having trouble getting to the
outside world from your vms. my next guess would be that there are
rules in the iptables firewall that are preventing FORWARD traffic
from getting between the hosts.
***@dzur:~# cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
0
***@dzur:~#

Bingo.

However, writing a one to it made no difference.
Post by Mike Lovell
these links may also help you in your quest.
http://libvirt.org/formatnetwork.html
http://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Networking
hope that helps
Thanks. I'm slowly getting further with this.
Post by Mike Lovell
mike
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Charles Curley
2010-06-22 15:06:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:37:24 -0600
Post by Charles Curley
Grumble. I found out that while I can ping from one VM to another I
can't ssh. I also need to use arbitrary ports above 1024.
OK, I found out what part of my problem is. In order for packets to
make the round trip from a VM to a physical machine on my network, I
have to add a route to those physical machines.

This meant adding statements to my DHCP configuration.

However, having done that for my gateway, I still can't access web
sites from a VM. I can get updates (yum, apt, etc.) but not regular web
access. This is not a requirement for the project at hand, but it irks
me.
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Henry Hertz Hobbit
2010-07-16 20:34:32 UTC
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I am considering unsubscribing. I also didn't attend your
meeting and probably won't. I think your PLUG is like a lot of
other LUGs and is going to disappear.

Your system wouldn't let me login (yes I used the login name of
hhhobbit and the password that was mailed to me). If you people
love Darl McBride who single-handedly did more to try to trash
the ability of anybody to use Linux and dislike Richard Stallman
whose work makes it possible for you to have Linux I am more than
baffled. I am DUMBFOUNDED!

I needed people with Linux expertise to help leverage people off
of Windows onto Linux for security reasons. Specifically, I see
the following two areas as ripe for the picking:

1. People at home. Many have very little technical knowledge
and will need assistance from time to time. A good LUG is the
place to get this. In fairness, some of your members are
providing that, but if somebody is so entranced and enchanted
by McBride to accuse me of not having social skills they are
NOT the kind of person I need to help hand-hold these people
into using Linux. Specifically, people could help them start
to make the transition to Linux by starting with installing
Firefox, Chrome, or Opera as their primary browser on Windows.
Then install OpenOffice in place of Office. Anything that reduces
the culture shock in going from Windows to Linux will help
them when they make the transition. BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING
TO NEED A LOT OF HELP! And all they are going to care about is
that they got rid of a problem - Windows malware. They don't
adore Linux and probably never will except for this one reason,
THEY GOT RID OF THE MALWARE! But they also need to get what
ever it is they do done (and that is THEIR business).

2. Small business owners do not have the protection that you or
I as individuals have. They are spear-phished and the hackers
once they get the needed info siphon off their bank account and
then sabotage their machine so it won't boot. But what do they
have to go to? Deseret Industries replaced their Windows 2003
POS (Point Of Sale) Server system with a Windows 2009 POS
system. Why didn't they consider Linux? BECAUSE THERE IS NO
LINIX POS! About their only alternative is perhaps IBM'S AIX
POS system and it is actually far more expensive rather than
less expensive than what Microsoft provides. You would have to
create it manually. No small business has the resources or
technical staff to do that. Why didn't somebody already seize
on this business opportunity? BECAUSE THERE IS A LAW-SUIT FROM
SCO STARTED BY DARL MCBRIDE THAT STILL WON'T DIE AND GO AWAY!
They are promising to continue it forever. I would NOT write
ONE LINE of code in that situation and I don't know one other
business manager that wouldn't do exactly the same thing
unless it may be Novell.

So what can we do to help them? SANS, Brian Krebs formerly of
the Washington Post and others have already come up with the
answer. Give them either a dedicated machine to do their banking
with or a bootable Linux CD that they can boot to Linux to do
their banking from. These CDs could be provided at meetings and
PLUG people could help small business owners in using it.

My friend Greg warned me about you people and he was right. He
also gave up on PLUG. But he is using Ubuntu Linux just to
get rid of the Windows malware situation. So you are going to
have to make a decision of where you want to go. You are going
to have to come up with a charter that details the direction of
where you are headed and what you consider important. If it is
any of the following I am definitely not interested:

[a] Promote Darl McBride who is the pivot point of somebody who
tried to destroy Linux. Microsoft at the start was so happy
with what he was doing you can't believe it. From that you
should not misinterpret me as being anti-Microsoft. I am
not. I am pro-security and wanting people to have something
that gets the job done. If that is Windows and they are
happy, so am I. It is just that I know from a security
stand-point that Linux is much better.
[b] Discuss the esoterica of things that really don't help
normal people get their job done. Once they get rid of the
Windows malware and get things doing what they need to get
done they are happy campers. That is fine with me! That is
one more satisfied customer that when I write to a company
and say: I have a pipeline problem. Your Linux code for
your PCI parallel board won't compile I will no longer get a
support staff person that says "we have umpteen mergers
and that is an unsupported product." If we have 10,000 new
Linux users in place of each one we have now they wouldn't
even dream of saying that! They would literally put their
Linux staff programmer on the job and try to figure out why
it no longer compiles on both Ubuntu 10.04 and OpenSuse 11.2.
Hey, both the gender bender USB ---> Parallel cable and
this PCI Parallel board work on Windows. Why not on Linux?
IT IS THE PIPELINE that is the main source of the problem.
But I am still baffled why Fedora 3 could recognize my
monitor and Fedoras 10, 11, and 12 couldn't. ALL MICROSOFT
WINDOWS USERS WOULD HAVE THE SAME PUZZLING THOUGHT! Why
did it have it then but not now? Ditto for one printer
filter that worked replace by 12 that well they may work
or they may not work.
[c] Continue with the idea that distros should diverge more and
more rather than converge to something ordinary people can
handle. I am sorry but Ubuntu shifting the maximize,
minimize, and close buttons from upper right side to the
upper left side is hard to understand. For the same reason
I continue to use a QWERTY keyboard instead of shifting to
DVORAK - sooner or later I hit the other way of doing it.
Standardization of ontrols of automobiles were done years
ago. The same thing needs to happen here with Linux. Having
fifteen different ways for mounting my FAT32 partition of
which thirteen are wrong is hard to understand.

So you people hammer it out what is you want to do and I will
go another way. But I will be damned if I will ever understand
why somebody would lovee Darl McBride and hate Richard Stallman
to the point that they would say I lack social skills. Perhaps
they work for Omniture and are peeved that my PAC filter strips
almost all (all?) of their scripts out so you don't even see the
2o7.net host called? C'est la vie.

HHH
PS I am still printing on my HP LaserJet 4P printer but only
from Linux. Why wouldn't I? The replacement printer costs
$200 and the print cartridges cost $70 but only print out
700 sheets. I don't know how many thousands of sheets I
have printed with current print cartridge but it is a lot
and there will be more - that is MY battle now, NOT yours,
but again a Windows person who has it working with both
the gender bender cable and the PCI Parallel plug in board
would be like my friend who works for BYU that said Linux
is not ready for the desktop. From the perspective of a
security person, LINUX HAS TO BE READY. There are things
I can't even filter any more (at all) in a pro-active
fashion.

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Brad Midgley
2010-07-16 20:46:55 UTC
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Henry

Your complaints about the mailing list are a reasonable basis to
leave, filter, or mute the list, but not necessarily to stop going to
meetings. The meetings are generally solid and are a good format for
learning something useful.

Brad

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Jonathan Duncan
2010-07-16 21:15:17 UTC
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Post by Brad Midgley
Henry
Your complaints about the mailing list are a reasonable basis to
leave, filter, or mute the list, but not necessarily to stop going to
meetings. The meetings are generally solid and are a good format for
learning something useful.
Keep in mind also, that if you do not like a certain conversation thread, you do not need to follow it. :) Better threads will come. They always do.


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Alan Young
2010-07-16 21:16:32 UTC
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On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 15:15, Jonathan Duncan
Keep in mind also, that if you do not like a certain conversation thread, you do not need to follow it.  :)  Better threads will
come.  They always do.
VIm is better than emacs!
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Thad Van Ry
2010-07-16 21:20:04 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Henry Hertz Hobbit <
<snip of entire rant that I read way too much of>
Wow!

I didn't read anything in previous threads that led me to believe that PLUG
as an organization espouses the things that you claim. All I read were
various people expressing their opinions. Much the same way as you just
have.

I've learned in my life that I can learn things from everyone I come in
contact with. Does every meeting interest every member of PLUG? I certainly
hope not! We are all induhviduals. That means we have different likes and
dislikes. If that makes you want to leave the group, then I feel bad for
you.

Thad

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Daniel C.
2010-07-16 21:23:40 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Henry Hertz Hobbit
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
I am considering unsubscribing.
Talk is for the weak - strong men take action. Don't let this become
another in your long line of unsubstantiated threats, Mr. Hertz. Show
us you mean business! Leave this list. We will miss you - we'll weep
and wail and gnash our teeth. Every one of us will spend weeks in
anguish, searching our souls for the answer to the question - "What
could I have done differently? How could I have kept dear Henry on my
mailing list?" But no, good H.H.H., you are done with us. You are
too good for the PLUG mailing list. Though our hearts are breaking
already, you must leave us.

It's for our own good, really. How can we grow beyond our current,
juvenile state without the heartbreak of your departure to spur us
into introspection? We cannot! Nothing short of the searing,
intimate pain that accompanies a hole in our collective hearts - a
hole that your laughter, your wit and fine, handsome looks once filled
- can lead us to the make the changes in ourselves that we so
desperately need.

So go, Mr. Hertz. Leave us to our turmoil. It will be painful, but
it's for the best. It really is.

Mournfully,
Mr. Daniel Crookston

(I also look forward to Stuart's response to the original email.)

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Joshua Fenio
2010-07-16 21:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Van Ry
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Henry Hertz Hobbit
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
I am considering unsubscribing.
It's for our own good, really. How can we grow beyond our current,
juvenile state without the heartbreak of your departure to spur us
into introspection? We cannot! Nothing short of the searing,
intimate pain that accompanies a hole in our collective hearts - a
hole that your laughter, your wit and fine, handsome looks once filled
- can lead us to the make the changes in ourselves that we so
desperately need.
Joining the Army has, incredibly, improved your prose, Dan.

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Daniel C.
2010-07-16 21:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua Fenio
Joining the Army has, incredibly, improved your prose, Dan.
It has given me a ridiculous amount of spare time, which I've devoted
mostly to reading.

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Stuart Jansen
2010-07-17 21:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel C.
(I also look forward to Stuart's response to the original email.)
No way I can top that.
--
Stuart Jansen <sjansen-***@public.gmane.org>


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Henry Hertz Hobbit
2010-07-16 22:26:20 UTC
Permalink
On 07/16/2010 08:34 PM, Henry Hertz Hobbit wrote:

<SNIP>
PS I am still printing on my HP LaserJet 4P printer but NOT
from Linux.
OOPS! I think I said I could print only from Linux. I can only
print from Windows. In fairness I cannot lay complete blame on
the hardware vendor. Their Linux code for their PCI parallel
card probably originally compiled and worked on Linux. The
problem is that the changes to Linux are revolutionary rather
evolutionary. How is ANY hardware vendor supposed to keep up
with that? How are they supposed to keep up with even just
ONE distro? But one printer filter that worked replaced by
twelve that MAY work? I don't define that as progress.

I can remember when I could get Knoppix to do great and
wonderful things. The last time I tried to use it neither the
original STD nor the latest and greatest would allow me to go
in and modify a Windows XP system to get rid of the password
password lock (SATA disk). We finally installed Windows XP Home
over Windows XP Pro. If you start to read the reviews on
Knoppix you see that most of the stuff they say you can do can
not be done in the latest book with the latest version. That
is what I found to be the case.

I have similar problems with Brasero not working on both
OpenSuse 11.2 and Ubuntu 10.04. The only solace is that Nero 8
also doesn't work on GandalfTW running Windows XP Pro. So maybe
the DVD drive really is defective and needs to be replaced. The
only thing that works is Nero 6 on Sauron running Windows XP
Home. The problem is, Sauron is running OpenSuse 11.2 which is my
flagship OS. But if Nero 6 works on it and Brasero doesn't what
in the world is going wrong? On Fedora 3, I had not only one but
TWO CD / DVD creators and BOTH OF THEM worked. And unlike
Brasero I could change the label and they didn't change it to
SHOUT at me. I couldn't even change the disk label with Brasero.
So I put up with Sauron's OpenSuse 11.2 being out of the loop
when I created the 25 CDs of LDS Temple Pictures I give to people
every year. It is very difficult for a rational human being to
understand why this is happening. Where did things go wrong?

I think you need to understand that Google employees are flocking
not to Linux but Macinstosh despite its embedded spying. Why?
They want to get rid of these problems of things not working with
Linux. By now I assume it is common knowledge that to run
Windows at Google you need CIO approval. What a contrast to me
asking them if Google Earth would be provided on Linux and
being told no. Now even Chrome works on Linux.

I can remember it was a problem of no hardware vendor support
but I must tell you that my PCI Parallel board Windows install
actually used a mini Linux to do the install! And their code will
no longer compile on my two versions of Linux? Whose fault is
this? People writing the software need to think once, twice,
and then thrice. I can remember the early efforts where the
guy took out my mount points for my FAT32 and floppies in
Fedora 3. If he had used Sun Solaris or AIX the concept of
static (left alone) and dynamic (they are his babies) mount
tables would have created a much better solution. Again we
have a case of revolution instead of evolution.

Why am I running OpenSuse 11.2 on Sauron where I intended to
install Ubuntu 9.x? Because when I went to install it the Ubuntu
install couldn't see the second disk that I had set aside for it
and DesktopBSD. Why does GandalfTW have 10.04 instead of 9.x?
Because 9.x did not support my new VH242HL-P Asus monitor. We have
all gone through it. At least with Ubuntu, lesson learned. Do
not try it unless the partitions are on the prime disk. But it
was an eye opener since things worked on Fedora, RHEL and in
other Linux distros on a second disk.

WHERE DID THINGS GO WRONG?

I will tell you where I think things went wrong. Darl McBride
came along and sued. This put the business managers out of the
loop. No business I know wants to stick their heads out on the
chopping block in that situation. IBM doesn't care who they pay
the royalties to for SYSV because they already have to do it for
AIX. But I still don't see a POS from IBM running on Linux. It
runs on AIX. They have Linux running on top of AIX.

Instead of standardization we have a fractured movement that is
under the control of geeks that view the OS as an end itself.
Most people don't view things that way. They want something
that just gets the job done. That is why my friend who works for
BYU controlling both Windows and Linux servers said Linux isn't
ready for the desktop. What is he using at home? Windows XP Pro.
He dismissed Vista out-right. He knows he needs something else
soon. But after this experience with Brasero how should I
advise him? The DVD-RW drives worked just fine in doing the
installs of two operating systems per machine. How would you
advise him? I am leaning towards telling him to upgrade to
Windows 7 Pro but also to install OpenSuse 11.2 But when he
tries to burn a disk or go send a print-out to the printer
(and my worked just fine with Fedora 3 with a motherboard
that had a parallel port) and it fails, how long do you think
he will put up with it?

I don't know about the rest of you people but after seeing just
how wonderful Astaro has become (it is much more than just a
firewall now) I DESPERATELY WANT LINUX TO SUCCEED! Whether you
like Richard Stallman or not, the GPL stands there as a bulwark
to allow Linux and my filters to exist. Not only that, Mike
Burgess (MVPHosts) has been delivered with papers (SUED). He
is using the Creative Commons license. What am I using? THE
GPL. WHO CREATED THE GPL? RICHARD STALLMAN. Have I been sued?
NO! What is one of the philosophies of Richard Stallman? That
just because you are poor you shouldn't be pissed on and told
you don't have any value as a human being. If that goes counter
to you people's philosophy I don't want anything to do with you.
And that is infinitely more important than Darl McBride, Linux
or anything else. Now you are going against not just my
religion but Buddhism, Christianity in general, Islam, and
Judaism.

It just seems rife in this area in this area to look down your
noses on the poor and I am getting pissed off as hell with it.
Greg was right. Take me off your subscription list.

Henry Hertz Hobbit
Jacob Albretsen
2010-07-17 04:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
It just seems rife in this area in this area to look down your
noses on the poor and I am getting pissed off as hell with it.
Greg was right. Take me off your subscription list.
Henry Hertz Hobbit
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Stuart Jansen
2010-07-17 21:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacob Albretsen
http://www.xmission.com/~jakea/images/martyrdom.jpg
It's been so long since I've seen an "I'm unsubscribing because you all
suck" message that I thought it was a dead art.
--
Stuart Jansen <sjansen-***@public.gmane.org>


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Charles Curley
2010-07-17 23:35:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:58:26 -0600
Post by Stuart Jansen
Post by Jacob Albretsen
http://www.xmission.com/~jakea/images/martyrdom.jpg
It's been so long since I've seen an "I'm unsubscribing because you
all suck" message that I thought it was a dead art.
Doesn't mean it isn't a dead art.

Has anyone checked to see if H^3 has carried out his [threat|promise]?
--
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Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email

Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB

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Jonathan Duncan
2010-07-17 23:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Curley
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:58:26 -0600
Post by Stuart Jansen
Post by Jacob Albretsen
http://www.xmission.com/~jakea/images/martyrdom.jpg
It's been so long since I've seen an "I'm unsubscribing because you
all suck" message that I thought it was a dead art.
Doesn't mean it isn't a dead art.
Has anyone checked to see if H^3 has carried out his [threat|promise]?
Dead or not, it has been entertaining.


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Charles Curley
2010-07-17 23:57:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:49:36 -0600
Post by Jonathan Duncan
Post by Charles Curley
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:58:26 -0600
Post by Stuart Jansen
Post by Jacob Albretsen
http://www.xmission.com/~jakea/images/martyrdom.jpg
It's been so long since I've seen an "I'm unsubscribing because you
all suck" message that I thought it was a dead art.
Doesn't mean it isn't a dead art.
Dead or not, it has been entertaining.
I guess that depends on your idea of entertainment.
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email

Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB

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Tod Hansmann
2010-07-18 03:25:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Duncan
Dead or not, it has been entertaining.
This sentiment may not be shared by many, but truth be told I found it
less entertaining and more sad. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I used
to get some enjoyment from silly rants people made in the hopes that
<insert impossible social response here> would happen. I think 3H
genuinely has some issues, probably issues he crutches upon, and while I
feel no need to help the poor guy, it's sad that he hasn't been helped
at this point. Perhaps he just doesn't want help, or recognize the
need. Either way, it makes me "awwww" in a "shucks" manner.

That said, it will probably be healthier for him not to socialize on an
internet mailing list with such problems in his corner.

-Tod Hansmann

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Levi Pearson
2010-07-16 22:59:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Henry Hertz Hobbit
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
If you people
love Darl McBride who single-handedly did more to try to trash
the ability of anybody to use Linux and dislike Richard Stallman
whose work makes it possible for you to have Linux I am more than
baffled. I am DUMBFOUNDED!
What makes you think anyone here loves Darl McBride? At most, I
imagine some people here respect him as a person who has made some
poor decisions regarding lawsuits. I imagine a lot of people dislike
him almost as much as you seem to.

Why does it offend you so much that I dislike what Richard Stallman
has been doing lately? I don't dislike him as a person, though I
wouldn't go out of my way to meet him. I just wish he'd taken a
different path. I'm sorry my opinions offend you so much, but I'm not
going to change them on your behalf.
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
I needed people with Linux expertise to help leverage people off
of Windows onto Linux for security reasons.  Specifically, I see
1. People at home.  Many have very little technical knowledge
and will need assistance from time to time.  A good LUG is the
place to get this. In fairness, some of your members are
providing that, but if somebody is so entranced and enchanted
by McBride to accuse me of not having social skills they are
NOT the kind of person I need to help hand-hold these people
into using Linux.  Specifically, people could help them start
to make the transition to Linux by starting with installing
Firefox, Chrome, or Opera as their primary browser on Windows.
Then install OpenOffice in place of Office.  Anything that reduces
the culture shock in going from Windows to Linux will help
them when they make the transition.  BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING
TO NEED A LOT OF HELP!  And all they are going to care about is
that they got rid of a problem - Windows malware.  They don't
adore Linux and probably never will except for this one reason,
THEY GOT RID OF THE MALWARE!  But they also need to get what
ever it is they do done (and that is THEIR business).
What does someone's opinion of Darl McBride, Richard Stallman, or your
social skills have to do with installing Firefox? I would be more
than happy to help anyone who showed up to a meeting to install
Firefox, some Linux distribution, or whatever. I think most members
would feel the same. Of course, I'd also be happy to help them
install a fresh copy of Windows, but that's beside the point.
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
2. Small business owners do not have the protection that you or
I as individuals have.  They are spear-phished and the hackers
once they get the needed info siphon off their bank account and
then sabotage their machine so it won't boot.  But what do they
have to go to?  Deseret Industries replaced their Windows 2003
POS (Point Of Sale) Server system with a Windows 2009 POS
system.  Why didn't they consider Linux?  BECAUSE THERE IS NO
LINIX POS!  About their only alternative is perhaps IBM'S AIX
POS system and it is actually far more expensive rather than
less expensive than what Microsoft provides. You would have to
create it manually.  No small business has the resources or
technical staff to do that.  Why didn't somebody already seize
on this business opportunity? BECAUSE THERE IS A LAW-SUIT FROM
SCO STARTED BY DARL MCBRIDE THAT STILL WON'T DIE AND GO AWAY!
They are promising to continue it forever. I would NOT write
ONE LINE of code in that situation and I don't know one other
business manager that wouldn't do exactly the same thing
unless it may be Novell.
So what can we do to help them?  SANS, Brian Krebs formerly of
the Washington Post and others have already come up with the
answer. Give them either a dedicated machine to do their banking
with or a bootable Linux CD that they can boot to Linux to do
their banking from.  These CDs could be provided at meetings and
PLUG people could help small business owners in using it.
My friend Greg warned me about you people and he was right.  He
also gave up on PLUG.  But he is using Ubuntu Linux just to
get rid of the Windows malware situation. So you are going to
have to make a decision of where you want to go.  You are going
to have to come up with a charter that details the direction of
where you are headed and what you consider important.  If it is
[a] Promote Darl McBride who is the pivot point of somebody who
   tried to destroy Linux.  Microsoft at the start was so happy
   with what he was doing you can't believe it.  From that you
   should not misinterpret me as being anti-Microsoft.  I am
   not.  I am pro-security and wanting people to have something
   that gets the job done.  If that is Windows and they are
   happy, so am I.  It is just that I know from a security
   stand-point that Linux is much better.
No one here is interested in promoting Darl McBride.
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
[b] Discuss the esoterica of things that really don't help
   normal people get their job done.  Once they get rid of the
   Windows malware and get things doing what they need to get
   done they are happy campers.  That is fine with me!  That is
   one more satisfied customer that when I write to a company
   and say: I have a pipeline problem.  Your Linux code for
   your PCI parallel board won't compile I will no longer get a
   support staff person that says "we have umpteen mergers
   and that is an unsupported product."  If we have 10,000 new
   Linux users in place of each one we have now they wouldn't
   even dream of saying that!  They would literally put their
   Linux staff programmer on the job and try to figure out why
   it no longer compiles on both Ubuntu 10.04 and OpenSuse 11.2.
   Hey, both the gender bender USB ---> Parallel cable and
   this PCI Parallel board work on Windows.  Why not on Linux?
   IT IS THE PIPELINE that is the main source of the  problem.
   But I am still baffled why Fedora 3 could recognize my
   monitor and Fedoras 10, 11, and 12 couldn't.  ALL MICROSOFT
   WINDOWS USERS WOULD HAVE THE SAME PUZZLING THOUGHT!  Why
   did it have it then but not now?  Ditto for one printer
   filter that worked replace by 12 that well they may work
   or they may not work.
We are interested in talking about things that we, the members of this
group, want to accomplish or are otherwise interested in. This group
is for us, not for the world at large. We're not a social movement,
we're a users group. As in, WE are the users who are meeting to
discuss things related to OUR usage of Linux. If someone wants to
install Linux and become a user, then we welcome them and will be
happy to answer their questions and, if they suggest things they'd
like to hear about, we can try to accommodate those topics. It's
silly to try to guess what some hypothetical new person might be
interested in, though, when there are already a group of us with
interests that we know about.
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
[c] Continue with the idea that distros should diverge more and
   more rather than converge to something ordinary people can
   handle.  I am sorry but Ubuntu shifting the maximize,
   minimize, and close buttons from upper right side to the
   upper left side is hard to understand.  For the same reason
   I continue to use a QWERTY keyboard instead of shifting to
   DVORAK - sooner or later I hit the other way of doing it.
   Standardization of ontrols of automobiles were done years
   ago.  The same thing needs to happen here with Linux. Having
   fifteen different ways for mounting my FAT32 partition of
   which thirteen are wrong is hard to understand.
Some of us have other uses for Linux besides trying to get Windows
users to adopt it as a desktop OS. I use it primarily for embedded
systems and related development. Others use it as a server platform.
Trying to fit the myriad uses of Linux into a single interface is
silly. I agree that a single desktop platform on Linux would be nice,
but the very principles espoused by your friend Richard Stallman
ensure that such a thing will never exist, because it would require
some sort of centralized, top-down dictate to make it happen.
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
So  you people hammer it out what is you want to do and I will
go another way.  But I will be damned if I will ever understand
why somebody would lovee Darl McBride and hate Richard Stallman
to the point that they would say I lack social skills.  Perhaps
they work for Omniture and are peeved that my PAC filter strips
almost all (all?) of their scripts out so you don't even see the
2o7.net host called?  C'est la vie.
Is there a single person here that 1) loves Darl McBride, 2) hates
Richard Stallman, and 3) has said you lack social skills? No. There
may be some people who don't hate Darl McBride enough for your tastes,
others who don't like Richard Stallman sufficiently, and maybe one of
the above said you lacked social skills, or it might have been someone
else entirely. How you managed to combine the three traits into your
imagined 'essence of PLUG' is beyond me.

--Levi

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Aaron Toponce
2010-07-16 23:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Levi Pearson
What makes you think anyone here loves Darl McBride? At most, I
imagine some people here respect him as a person who has made some
poor decisions regarding lawsuits. I imagine a lot of people dislike
him almost as much as you seem to.
I don't have any respect for Darl McBride. He took a company, rather
reputable in the Linux and Unix world, and destroyed it. Not only that,
but his previous history has shown that he does not know how to run a
company.

I would, however, like to know what he is doing now, post-SCO, and if
his hatred for IBM and the Linux kernel is still strong, or if he's
doesn't care, now that he doesn't have the slightest path to the Unix
rights.

On the flip, he brought thousands upon thousands of GNU, BSD, Linux and
others together, and brought these operating system more to the
spotlight than they had ever reached previously.

Should we thank him or hate him? A forum with him might answer that
question. A forum with RMS, however, wouldn't be much interest to me.
Nor ESR. John "maddog" Hall, maybe. Bruce Perens, maybe. Linus Torvalds,
definitely. Alan Cox, for sure. Stormy Peters, Mark Shuttleworth, Jim
Whitehurst, and more. I, personally, like discussion forums.
--
. O . O . O . . O O . . . O .
. . O . O O O . O . O O . . O
O O O . O . . O O O O . O O O
Shane Hathaway
2010-07-16 23:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
I needed people with Linux expertise to help leverage people off
of Windows onto Linux for security reasons. Specifically, I see
1. People at home. Many have very little technical knowledge
and will need assistance from time to time. A good LUG is the
place to get this.
A large part of my extended family uses Ubuntu, but I doubt I should
tell them to visit any Linux user group for help. The kinds of things
they need help with are usually simple, yet the users don't understand
the problems well enough to explain them. If I just sit at the keyboard
and fix it myself, I can finish in a few quiet minutes instead of
spending hours of confusion on the phone.

That's why I rarely recommend Linux to anyone outside my family,
regardless of its many benefits. I can't add anyone else to my support
list. If stores like Best Buy offered Linux service, I would gladly
recommend Linux.

Perhaps we could have a regular meeting where less-knowledgeable Linux
users bring their computers and experts fix them for free. I don't
think PLUG has ever been that kind of service, but if it did offer such
a thing, I would happily volunteer as an expert on these conditions:

1) There must be a fixed time limit. If I have to spend extra time on
something, I can not afford to come back again.

2) Users must agree to no warranty, even if their computer gets broken.
Ideally, they should sign a form to that effect.

3) Users must bring their computer and let the experts drive when
appropriate. I will not do phone tech support outside my family.
(Phone tech support within my family is only acceptable because I retain
root access via OpenVPN on all their computers.)

4) I can not promise I will come to the next meeting or help at other
times. I probably will help occasionally, but I can not afford to
*promise* to help.

Such a meeting, if successful, could serve as a seed for Linux support
businesses and would encourage sharing of Linux expertise.

Shane

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Grant Shipley
2010-07-16 23:55:42 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Henry Hertz Hobbit <
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
I am considering unsubscribing. I also didn't attend your
meeting and probably won't. I think your PLUG is like a lot of
other LUGs and is going to disappear.
It's very easy to do, just visit:

http://plug.org/mailman/listinfo/plug

and click unsubscribe. In fact, your long winded dribble made me re-asses
if I want to subscribe to the list as well. I decided I don't. With that,
I bid you all farewell and happy linuxing.

--
grant

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Grant Shipley
2010-07-18 00:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Henry Hertz Hobbit <
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
I am considering unsubscribing. I also didn't attend your
meeting and probably won't. I think your PLUG is like a lot of
other LUGs and is going to disappear.
http://plug.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
and click unsubscribe. In fact, your long winded dribble made me re-asses
if I want to subscribe to the list as well. I decided I don't. With that,
I bid you all farewell and happy linuxing.
--
grant
I have gotten a bunch of private emails over the weekend with people asking
me if I was serious.

The answer: No. After being on the list for 13 years*, its gonna take a
little more than that to get me to leave. I don't even live in Utah for
crying out loud and yet I continue to troll........

--
grant

* I am not sure how long I have actually been on the list but I guessing it
was around 1998. I joined to try and figure out how to get my internal
winmodem to work so I could dial up XMission. I ended up buying an external
US Robotics and haven't looked back since. :)

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Stuart Jansen
2010-07-17 21:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry Hertz Hobbit
I am considering unsubscribing. I also didn't attend your
meeting and probably won't. I think your PLUG is like a lot of
other LUGs and is going to disappear.
Wow, it's been years since we've had one of these.

It's so endearing that you think we actually care or will bother to read
your long winded whining. Stay or go, we don't really care. It'll be
your loss and our gain.



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Aaron Toponce
2010-07-18 00:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Jansen
Wow, it's been years since we've had one of these.
... and the reason I subscribed. I had heard about all the drama on PLUG
(how to spell perl (is it "PERL", "Perl", etc), vim vs emacs, and
Stuart's witty commentary). After subscribing, I was let down. I didn't
see the emotions that I had heard, but remained on, hoping one day I
would see drama.

I am now satisfied. Years of subscription made worth my time, thanks to
this thread, and the couple previous leading up to it. My life is now
almost complete. I still have yet to witness a lengthy discussion
between Stuart Jansen and Lamont Peterson. I've heard those are worth
cherishing.

Carry on PLUG, carry on.
--
. O . O . O . . O O . . . O .
. . O . O O O . O . O O . . O
O O O . O . . O O O O . O O O
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