Discussion:
[OT] Hit and Run
(too old to reply)
Kenneth Burgener
2007-08-21 19:48:30 UTC
Permalink
This is very much off topic, other than it happened in the Orem area,
and I just wanted to vent and hopefully get suggestions from my fellow
geeks.

Last Friday at around 7pm I was driving home north on 1200 West in
Orem. I stopped at the 800 North stop light with one car in front of
me. A silver Jimmy heading North thought it would be cool to see if she
could merge the mass of her vehicle with the mass of my vehicle (I
assume to perform some sort of physics experiment). Well things did not
quite go to plan, and her Jimmy merely bent and crumbled in the mass of
my vehicle, and no merging happened. I could see that she was
disappointed by this failed experiment as she finally disconnected her
cell phone conversation, to whom I assume must have been her physics lab
partner.

The 800 North light finally turned green and I slowly proceeded through
the stop light, and then pulled off to the side of the road to wait her
arrival so we could do the ritual exchange of Insurance information.
Then to my horror she decided, at that moment, that instead of
performing the traditional exchange of information, that she, I assume,
decided to go and find another victim to perform her physics experiment
on, and she took and immediate right speed off full speed up 800 North.

Well not wanting to be outdone by her experiment I decided to perform
one of my own. I called 911 and frantically said, "I have been involved
in a hit and run and I am following her, what should I do? Should I
continue to follow her?" The dispatch told me I could follow her if I
wanted to, so I did the obvious thing, and took off following her. At
this point I was really kicking me for not taking note of her license plate.

She saw that I was indeed following her and thought it would be a cool
idea to see if she could win this cat and mouse game, so she took the
first right and headed south down the residential back roads on 900
West. She then took the second left down 675 North hoping once again to
loose me. I just happened to catch a glimpse of her heading down this
road, and so when I finally arrived at this road, I also took a left.
There was no sign of her.

Well fortunately for me I decided to continue down this road, and to my
surprise this road looped back around and dumped me back on 900 West.
Heading South down 900 West, and a block or two away, was the silver
Jimmy I was following. Hooray! I was still on the phone with the
dispatch, and she asked me which direction the vehicle was traveling,
and I told her "South", which she responded that officers were on their
way. So I followed here down the road, but she was gaining distance on
me, and then at the end of 900 West there was a forced left turn. She
followed the curve and she was gone from my sight again. Despair began
to set in again.

When I arrived at the curve I looked down the road and there was no sign
of any vehicle driving away, but suspiciously to the side of the road,
immediately in front of the stop sight, with all of its lights turned
off, was a silver Jimmy that looked very much like the one I had been
following. As I slowly drove past I could see the smashed up front of
her vehicle. The mouse had been found. I pulled in front of her, and
gave the dispatch the final address. To my surprise, as I looked at her
vehicle, there was no license plate numbers to have recorded anyway, as
there were only dealer advertisements where the license plates should
have been.

A few minutes latter an unmarked police car showed up, then another
police car, and finally a third police car. Anyone driving by this
circus could not for a second have thought something big was going down
here.

One of the officers collected my information insurance information, and
asked if I was okay. That was the extent of any conversation I had the
remaining time I was at the scene. My bumper was smashed in, and the
side panel was broken, and who know what other internal damage could
have been done. A barrage of questions were being asked to the driver
of the failed science experiment, and the vehicle was searched. To my
horror there was mention of her not having insurance. Then another
comment of her being on prescription drugs, and citations and possibly
being hauled off to jail.

I was eventually told that I was excused and I headed home, being very
grateful that, as far as I can tell, wasn't personally injured, and my
vehicle was at least in a drivable state.

I truly felt sorry for her as citations for hit and run, no insurance,
and possibly driving intoxicated were no small apples.

About an hour later the reporting office called me and told that she had
not been hauled of to jail, and that he was not going to cite her. He
said that the $50 ticket of a hit and run would not do justice. He then
said that in his report it is obvious who had caused the problem and did
not see a need for the ticket, and that she claimed to have insurance
through some company he had never heard of. He said that she would have
to pay for the repairs and seemed to indicate that this was justice
enough. I was too in shock to even respond to this and was really
irritated with myself for not saying anything. I rationalized that at
least her insurance would cover the damages and I should be at least
content with that.

Well the weekend finally ended and I went down to the police station to
pick up the report. The report basically said vehicle 1 hit vehicle 2
from behind. There was no mention of a hit and run (I believe a $300
ticket), no mention of her using prescription drugs, and a big blaring
"no insurance" written where my sanity should have been. If the follow
up found there was no insurance, why on earth was a no insurance
citation not written. Having dealt with a no insurance citation in my
youth, a no insurance citation is like a $280 ticket, plus a mandatory
court appearance, and mandatory SR-22 insurance (which is FREAKY
expensive). I assume you can possibly tell I am livid by this outcome.

I was thinking, if the roles were reversed, I am fairly certain that I
would have spend the night in jail, and probably would have accrued all
3 citations. How on Earth did she get off Scott free?

Are there any lawyers or police officers that can explain to me what I
am missing?

Suggestions? Comments?


Thanks for listening,
Kenneth

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Andrew Jorgensen
2007-08-21 20:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
[...]
Suggestions? Comments?
Wild. I'm sorry you went through that. My comment is that we had
someone smash our car in a parking lot. The guy who did it gave us a
phone number and said that the car he was driving was borrowed. We
gave the number and name to the insurance company and were told we'd
have to pay our (at that time) $500 deductible which they would give
back to us eventually if they could get the guy to pay it to them.
They talked to him once, maybe twice, and then he changed his phone
number. The weird part is that because they couldn't find the guy who
did it anymore it became a hit and run which to our delight did not
require us to pay the deductible. Your insurance may vary, of course.

So long story short, we were better off (as was he I guess) that he
chickened out.

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Kenneth Burgener
2007-08-21 20:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Jorgensen
The weird part is that because they couldn't find the guy who
did it anymore it became a hit and run which to our delight did not
require us to pay the deductible. Your insurance may vary, of course.
We aren't so lucky. Our insurance says we will have to pay the $500
deductible if our insurance is required to pay for the repairs.

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Steve
2007-08-21 20:58:24 UTC
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Welcome to Utah, this is pretty standard fare especially for Utah county.
It has to do with the fact that a substantial amount of revenue is
generated from the issuance and enforcement of relatively low level
citations against those for whom enforcement will be easy, i.e. Middle
Income, stable folks with jobs and insurance. However if enforcement
would require much more than a simple summons, then citations are
rarely ever issued.

Feel lucky that you yourself were not cited, to be perfectly frank.
Yes you were on the phone with dispatch, but on the whole never try to
stop a hit and run driver. Thats breaking a lot of laws. I know I
very nearly evaded a citation myself last summer when a guy in a SUV
hopped a curb, ran over a bicyclist and then took off. I was right
behind him, so I swung my vehicle out blockade style in front of him
and offered him a nice T-Bone to add to his hit and run (I've got good
insurance and needed a new car anyways). He stopped before he T-Boned
with my much larger truck. But the cop threatened to cite me!

Conversely I personally know a man who has had 15 DUI's in 20 years,
and has never done a day of prison time, the longest time he spent in
jail was 180 days. He rarely ever walks out of court with so much as
a fine. His secret? He's indigent, but keeps telling the judge "I'm
trying to get my life together", etc.

Anyways as i said, welcome to Utah, this is pretty, much par for the course.
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Post by Andrew Jorgensen
The weird part is that because they couldn't find the guy who
did it anymore it became a hit and run which to our delight did not
require us to pay the deductible. Your insurance may vary, of course.
We aren't so lucky. Our insurance says we will have to pay the $500
deductible if our insurance is required to pay for the repairs.
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Kenneth Burgener
2007-08-21 21:30:43 UTC
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Post by Steve
Feel lucky that you yourself were not cited, to be perfectly frank.
Yes you were on the phone with dispatch, but on the whole never try to
stop a hit and run driver. Thats breaking a lot of laws. I know I
very nearly evaded a citation myself last summer when a guy in a SUV
hopped a curb, ran over a bicyclist and then took off. I was right
behind him, so I swung my vehicle out blockade style in front of him
and offered him a nice T-Bone to add to his hit and run (I've got good
insurance and needed a new car anyways). He stopped before he T-Boned
with my much larger truck. But the cop threatened to cite me!
I could have been cited for following the driver who hit me? That would
seem as ridiculous as suing McDonalds for burning yourself with hot
coffee, or suing a hope owner because you fell through their skylight
when trying to rob them! I know the rules... the victim is guilty
because he/she let themselves be a victim. :-(

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Kenneth Burgener
2007-08-21 21:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
I could have been cited for following the driver who hit me? That would
seem as ridiculous as suing McDonalds for burning yourself with hot
coffee, or suing a hope owner because you fell through their skylight
when trying to rob them! I know the rules... the victim is guilty
because he/she let themselves be a victim. :-(
That was supposed to say "or suing a *home* owner". Darn spell check
didn't save me there :-)

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Hill, Greg
2007-08-21 22:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
I could have been cited for following the driver who hit me? That would
seem as ridiculous as suing McDonalds for burning yourself with hot
coffee, or suing a hope owner because you fell through their skylight
when trying to rob them! I know the rules... the victim is guilty
because he/she let themselves be a victim. :-(
That McDonalds case is brought up as an example of frivolous lawsuits,
but it wasn't. The person actually had serious burns and McDonalds had
a policy of keeping their coffee well above legal temperature limits.
They changed their policy as a result of the suit.

Greg

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Mister E
2007-08-21 22:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Post by Steve
Feel lucky that you yourself were not cited, to be perfectly frank.
Yes you were on the phone with dispatch, but on the whole never try to
stop a hit and run driver. Thats breaking a lot of laws. I know I
very nearly evaded a citation myself last summer when a guy in a SUV
hopped a curb, ran over a bicyclist and then took off. I was right
behind him, so I swung my vehicle out blockade style in front of him
and offered him a nice T-Bone to add to his hit and run (I've got good
insurance and needed a new car anyways). He stopped before he T-Boned
with my much larger truck. But the cop threatened to cite me!
I could have been cited for following the driver who hit me? That would
seem as ridiculous as suing McDonalds for burning yourself with hot
coffee, or suing a hope owner because you fell through their skylight
when trying to rob them! I know the rules... the victim is guilty
because he/she let themselves be a victim. :-(
Much of this comes from invasion of "jurisdiction". Vigilante thingies
are taken seriously as well. Between those two things, it was probably
why the officer was a bit agitated. However you as a citizen can
actually arrest people in such situations, most of the time, but it must
be done according to the standing statues of the combined locality
(state, township, etc). In fact it's not uncommon to allow a citizen to
issue the citation to the offending driver under the supervision of law
enforcement officer, when that citizen observed the offending behavior.
Makes for a great extension to the effectiveness of traffic patrols.

In the end, all this is relative to the officer's mindset at that exact
point, whether they are rookie or seasoned, and the situation and/or the
handling thereof by all parties involved.

The rest is fairly true. Citations are a revenue generator. Has been
that way for the last couple of decades I've had dealings in this area.
Originally meant to be a deterrent, citations are now viable income
streams for most cities and townships... main purpose of so called photo
cops. Provo City has become more aggressive with this aspect the last
little while, in that they will issue citations to everyone involved in
an incident traffic wise ... meaning no more true accidents. Most Provo
occifers that I have discussed it with dislike the mandate the mayor has
handed down.

Mister Ed




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Alex Esplin
2007-08-21 22:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister E
The rest is fairly true. Citations are a revenue generator. Has been
that way for the last couple of decades I've had dealings in this area.
Originally meant to be a deterrent, citations are now viable income
streams for most cities and townships... main purpose of so called photo
cops. Provo City has become more aggressive with this aspect the last
little while, in that they will issue citations to everyone involved in
an incident traffic wise ... meaning no more true accidents. Most Provo
occifers that I have discussed it with dislike the mandate the mayor has
handed down.
While I am not a fan of the idea of citations as a revenue generator,
I _am_ a fan of citing all parties involved IF (VERY IF) all parties
were partially responsible.

Case in point: Earlier this summer my wife was in an accident while
turning left from 900 S. to go north on State St. in south Provo.
According to the law, she is at fault, and was cited. However, the
guy that hit her never even tried to slow down or avoid her, meaning
that he most likely didn't even see her. He was cited for not
watching the road. (I obviously don't know the terminology used in
his citation). According to the traffic laws, my wife was totally at
fault. However, if the guy who hit her had been paying attention,
there would have been no accident. Situations like this are exactly
IMHO the reason for citing anyone who can be held partially
responsible for an accident. As a result, my wife is now _much_ more
careful when making that turn, and I would hope that the guy who hit
her pays a little better attention to the road (I know I would).
--
Alex Esplin

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Mister E
2007-08-21 23:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Esplin
Post by Mister E
The rest is fairly true. Citations are a revenue generator. Has been
that way for the last couple of decades I've had dealings in this area.
Originally meant to be a deterrent, citations are now viable income
streams for most cities and townships... main purpose of so called photo
cops. Provo City has become more aggressive with this aspect the last
little while, in that they will issue citations to everyone involved in
an incident traffic wise ... meaning no more true accidents. Most Provo
occifers that I have discussed it with dislike the mandate the mayor has
handed down.
While I am not a fan of the idea of citations as a revenue generator,
I _am_ a fan of citing all parties involved IF (VERY IF) all parties
were partially responsible.
Case in point: Earlier this summer my wife was in an accident while
turning left from 900 S. to go north on State St. in south Provo.
According to the law, she is at fault, and was cited. However, the
guy that hit her never even tried to slow down or avoid her, meaning
that he most likely didn't even see her. He was cited for not
watching the road. (I obviously don't know the terminology used in
his citation). According to the traffic laws, my wife was totally at
fault. However, if the guy who hit her had been paying attention,
there would have been no accident. Situations like this are exactly
IMHO the reason for citing anyone who can be held partially
responsible for an accident. As a result, my wife is now _much_ more
careful when making that turn, and I would hope that the guy who hit
her pays a little better attention to the road (I know I would).
well, in this case I would cite both. In a few other cases, I would
not. For example, a while back, a feller crossed in front of me while
running a red light 2 blocks from the Provo police station. Except for
the near heart attack and adrenaline rush, all was well. He was too busy
talking on his cell phone to notice the red light thingies hanging from
the pole in front of him. I still pulled him over and told him sternly
to watch the road and never to use his cell phone again while driving.
I made it clear he could have killed someone all for the convenience of
talking to someone. Based on his reaction, I could tell it made a huge
impact, so I concluded the conversation and went on my way (I was late
for my own meeting, so didn't have time to mess with the situation too
much). But with such rules of engagement handed down from politicians
interested in revenue only, it set's bad precedent. When you complete
academy, and obtain a position, you are sworn in as a peace officer
(public safety blah blah blah), not a revenue generator :)

Plus... it saves folks insurance charges and stress when a citation is
not issued (only when applicable of course).

But my inquiring mind wants to know if this became a legal hit and run
or just one for insurance purposes?

Mister Ed

ps - recent studies show that cell phone users, while driving, have the
same reaction time as do legally intoxicated drivers, so this is no lite
thing for me personally... and I would have probably done differently
above had it happened recently, and I was in a position to issue a
citation. However, it's the only real life instance I could share at
this point.



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Corey Edwards
2007-08-22 02:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister E
ps - recent studies show that cell phone users, while driving, have the
same reaction time as do legally intoxicated drivers, so this is no lite
thing for me personally
A study at the University of Utah, no less. It showed the people who
were at the legal limit did as well or better than those using cell
phones. If anybody is wondering, using a hands free set did not make a
difference. It's not a lack of dexterity that causes the danger, but
being mentally detached from the situation.

Wow. This is getting really OT. Um... I think they used a computer to do
the study. They should have used Linux if they didn't.

Corey



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Joseph Hall
2007-08-22 12:45:01 UTC
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I don't get it. Why should talking on a cell phone be any different
from holding a drink in one hand and talking to somebody in the
passenger seat while driving? People do that all the time, and I have
yet to hear somebody complain about it. Or if you're using a
hands-free set, how should that be any different from driving with
both hands and talking to the person in the passenger seat, or the
back seat?

It doesn't make sense to me. It shouldn't be any different. Of course,
driving and texting (DWT) at the same time, that would be dangerous.
Post by Corey Edwards
Post by Mister E
ps - recent studies show that cell phone users, while driving, have the
same reaction time as do legally intoxicated drivers, so this is no lite
thing for me personally
A study at the University of Utah, no less. It showed the people who
were at the legal limit did as well or better than those using cell
phones. If anybody is wondering, using a hands free set did not make a
difference. It's not a lack of dexterity that causes the danger, but
being mentally detached from the situation.
Wow. This is getting really OT. Um... I think they used a computer to do
the study. They should have used Linux if they didn't.
Corey
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Joseph
http://blog.josephhall.com/

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Kenneth Burgener
2007-08-22 13:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
I don't get it. Why should talking on a cell phone be any different
from holding a drink in one hand and talking to somebody in the
passenger seat while driving? People do that all the time, and I have
yet to hear somebody complain about it. Or if you're using a
hands-free set, how should that be any different from driving with
both hands and talking to the person in the passenger seat, or the
back seat?
It doesn't make sense to me. It shouldn't be any different. Of course,
driving and texting (DWT) at the same time, that would be dangerous.
I know when I am talking on a cell phone I am more distracted then if I
were not. I think it would be very hard to dispute that.

When talking to and adult passenger or an adult in the back seat, I
think you are generally safe with this. Notice I said "adult". I will
have to agree with you in that I have had arguments with kids in the
back seat, or babies screaming that I would qualify as more distracting
than talking on the cell phone though.

If I remember right, the drivers handbook states that any thing that
distracts you from focusing on driving should be avoided. I assume this
includes cell phones, texting, listing to too loud of music, putting on
makeup, changing your cloths, reading a map, drowsy driving, angry or
upset children in the backseat (I usually have a lovely passenger with
me who deals with the children, namely my wife :-) but this one can't
always be avoided), eating a taco or hamburger, looking down to fiddle
with the radio, leaning your seat slightly back so you can catch
glimpses of the movie the kids are watching, and I would include road
rage in this list as well, ALL of these things I have witnessed drivers
on the road doing.

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Joseph Hall
2007-08-22 14:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
I know when I am talking on a cell phone I am more distracted then if I
were not. I think it would be very hard to dispute that.
See, that's what I'm getting at. I could be wrong, but I like to think
that my driving is the same whether I'm talking to the person in the
seat next to me or if I'm talking on a hands-free set (I refuse to
talk on the drive and talk on the phone without the hands-free set). I
certainly don't feel any more distracted. I suppose anyone that's
driven with me in both situations would be able to tell me better.
--
Joseph
http://blog.josephhall.com/

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Thad Van Ry
2007-08-22 14:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
(I refuse to
talk on the drive and talk on the phone without the hands-free set).
Please excuse Joseph's bad wording. He was typing this while driving
to work. :-D

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Alex Esplin
2007-08-22 14:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
See, that's what I'm getting at. I could be wrong, but I like to think
that my driving is the same whether I'm talking to the person in the
seat next to me or if I'm talking on a hands-free set (I refuse to
talk on the drive and talk on the phone without the hands-free set). I
certainly don't feel any more distracted. I suppose anyone that's
driven with me in both situations would be able to tell me better.
A better metric would be to ask the people you talk on the phone to.
When my family catches me on my cell-phone while I'm driving they
won't talk to me because I'm distracted from the conversation because
I focus on the road and the cell-phone conversation is just more
background noise. However, I think that trying to make a
self-judgment on our own distractedness while talking on a cell-phone
vs. normal, in-car conversation is virtually impossible.
--
Alex Esplin

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Kenneth Burgener
2007-08-22 15:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
Post by Kenneth Burgener
I know when I am talking on a cell phone I am more distracted then if I
were not. I think it would be very hard to dispute that.
See, that's what I'm getting at. I could be wrong, but I like to think
that my driving is the same whether I'm talking to the person in the
seat next to me or if I'm talking on a hands-free set (I refuse to
talk on the drive and talk on the phone without the hands-free set). I
certainly don't feel any more distracted. I suppose anyone that's
driven with me in both situations would be able to tell me better.
During normal driving I could agree with you. I think the problem comes
when there is an emergency. If you had to do an emergency stop, or
swerve out of the way of something, or some other abrupt movement, and
person in the car talking with you would instinctively shut their mouth,
thereby freeing your mind to focus on the situation at hand. The person
on the phone will not have the same immediate reaction, and you will
likely have to focus some attention to tell the person to shut their
mouths for a few moments, or take the mental time to ignore their
incoming comments.

I am sure you could argue that you are of a strong enough mind to block
out the conversation immediately, but I tend to think that most people
have, at minimum, a slight difficulty in detaching themselves from a
engaging conversation.


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Von Fugal
2007-08-23 05:55:35 UTC
Permalink
* Kenneth Burgener [Wed, 22 Aug 2007 at 09:46 -0600]
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Post by Joseph Hall
Post by Kenneth Burgener
I know when I am talking on a cell phone I am more distracted then if I
were not. I think it would be very hard to dispute that.
See, that's what I'm getting at. I could be wrong, but I like to think
that my driving is the same whether I'm talking to the person in the
seat next to me or if I'm talking on a hands-free set (I refuse to
talk on the drive and talk on the phone without the hands-free set). I
certainly don't feel any more distracted. I suppose anyone that's
driven with me in both situations would be able to tell me better.
During normal driving I could agree with you. I think the problem comes
when there is an emergency. If you had to do an emergency stop, or
swerve out of the way of something, or some other abrupt movement, and
person in the car talking with you would instinctively shut their mouth,
thereby freeing your mind to focus on the situation at hand. The person
on the phone will not have the same immediate reaction, and you will
likely have to focus some attention to tell the person to shut their
mouths for a few moments, or take the mental time to ignore their
incoming comments.
I think not. It's way to easy to tune out a conversation or other
distraction in an emergency situation. If someone consciously tries to
maintain said conversation throughout the emergency (keeping them
informed, "omg, this is crazy, too bad you can't see it. I'm going to
die!" etc) is another story. I tune out conversations (in our out of the
car) when I have to check my blind spots, then I appologize, ask for a
repeat of the last bit of info, and resume the conversation. We know
that there is no such thing as multitasking, there's only context
switching, and it comes down to a matter of prioritizing. If you're
phone conversation carries a higher priority than driving that's when
you run into trouble. Yes, the context switch can be very detrimental in
an emergency situation, but then again you almost always have a context
switch happening in those situations, no matter what you're doing. The
cell phone is as bad as intoxication thing carries no water. It's not
the reaction time of an intoxicated person that's soo bad, it's the
inability to make good judgement, impaired motor skills, and the
impossibility to "tune out" the intoxication in those emergency
situations that make it so terrible.

Von Fugal
Dr. Scott S. Jones
2007-08-22 15:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Post by Joseph Hall
I don't get it. Why should talking on a cell phone be any different
from holding a drink in one hand and talking to somebody in the
glimpses of the movie the kids are watching, and I would include road
rage in this list as well, ALL of these things I have witnessed drivers
on the road doing.
I love watching, until it gets too disgusting, people in cars. I see them at
a stop light, fishing around for lost treasure. Sometimes they dig in the
dash assembly, sometimes the car seat, and sometimes in orifices such as
ears or nose. What gets me is how they think that no one else can see them,
no one else aware. Once that door closes they are in their own little vault,
own world.

I invite others to post crazy things drivers or passengers do. Another idea
is collecting accounts of dumb things people do at a 'drive-up' situations.
My favorite is the old lady who pulls up to the drive up mail box drop. She
gets just far enough away that she can't reach it, then opens the door,
bangs up the paint, getting out to drop the letter in the box. I can excuse
such behavior in those with depth perception issues, but for an able bodied
gentleman, young even, to pull the drive-up-get-out-bang-up-the-paint
routine, it's ultimate embarrassment.

They should make the laws punish those convicted of driving while talking
(dwt) as severe as for drunk or other driving distraction.

fwiw...

scott
Mister E
2007-08-22 17:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Scott S. Jones
They should make the laws punish those convicted of driving while talking
(dwt) as severe as for drunk or other driving distraction.
fwiw...
There is precedent emerging from the judicial side on distracted
driving. One gal in the great lakes area (if I recall correctly) was
sentenced to several years in prison for distracted driving. She hit a
child that darted out from between cars. Normally a hard thing to
avoid, but with her interest in attending to her electronic gadgets, the
judge felt it wise to send a strong message to the public, using her as
an example.

Mister Ed



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Andrew Jorgensen
2007-08-22 18:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister E
There is precedent emerging from the judicial side on distracted
driving. One gal in the great lakes area (if I recall correctly) was
sentenced to several years in prison for distracted driving. She hit a
child that darted out from between cars. Normally a hard thing to
avoid, but with her interest in attending to her electronic gadgets, the
judge felt it wise to send a strong message to the public, using her as
an example.
I strongly agree that distracted driving is extremely dangerous but it
isn't just to "use [a convict] as an example". A judgment should
never be swayed by a need to "send a strong message to the public".
The thought of a judge doing this makes me sick. On the other hand if
the judge's intent was to send this "strong message" to the convict
herself then more power to him. We don't (shouldn't) use scape goats
in the US of A.

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Mister E
2007-08-22 19:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Jorgensen
Post by Mister E
There is precedent emerging from the judicial side on distracted
driving. One gal in the great lakes area (if I recall correctly) was
sentenced to several years in prison for distracted driving. She hit a
child that darted out from between cars. Normally a hard thing to
avoid, but with her interest in attending to her electronic gadgets, the
judge felt it wise to send a strong message to the public, using her as
an example.
I strongly agree that distracted driving is extremely dangerous but it
isn't just to "use [a convict] as an example". A judgment should
never be swayed by a need to "send a strong message to the public".
The thought of a judge doing this makes me sick. On the other hand if
the judge's intent was to send this "strong message" to the convict
herself then more power to him. We don't (shouldn't) use scape goats
in the US of A.
unfortunately it was the version that makes you sick (you, me and others).

ME


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Andrew Jorgensen
2007-08-22 14:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
I don't get it. Why should talking on a cell phone be any different
from holding a drink in one hand and talking to somebody in the
passenger seat while driving? People do that all the time, and I have
yet to hear somebody complain about it. Or if you're using a
hands-free set, how should that be any different from driving with
both hands and talking to the person in the passenger seat, or the
back seat?
Because your mind is somewhere else. I mean that in an almost literal
way. When you're talking on a cell phone your mind isn't in the car
-- it's with the person on the other end of the conversation. When
you're holding a drink and talking to your buddy in the back seat your
mind is still in the car.

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Jeremy Hansen
2007-08-22 16:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
Of course,
driving and texting (DWT) at the same time, that would be dangerous
I don't know if you were joking about this or not, but I have witnessed this
exact transgression 3 times in the last 2 months. The first time I saw it I
couldn't believe it was actually happening. The worst case was a
teen-to-early-20s girl turning left onto the NB I-15 on-ramp at the 106th
South intersection at about 4:30 PM. Not exactly an area of light traffic.
Thankfully, for me anyway, I was headed south. But I just kept imagining her
on the freeway, constantly glancing down at her phone which she held with
both hands on the center of the steering wheel (apparently turning that with
her elbows), and typing away furiously with her thumbs. It was like playing
peek-a-boo with oncoming traffic. In fact, I was so mesmerized by her
stupidity that I'm sure I was almost as distracted as she was.

On another note, I have a bit of an axe to grind with the "Utah drivers"
stigma that has already been mentioned. To be blunt, I think it's total
bull.

### THIS IS A RANT. COMMENCE TO IGNORE. ###

I have driven in many different parts of the country, as doubtless many of
you have and, in my experience, there is no shortage of seemingly
incompetent drivers anywhere. I say seemingly because I believe it's really
just my (read our) overinflated perspective of a negative situational
experience that labels other drivers in this way. Driving here is no worse,
from a statistical standpoint, than anywhere else. Utah ranks close to the
middle in most driving related statistics, and lowest by almost half of most
states in % of alcohol related deaths in auto accidents. The bottom line is,
we all have driving idiosyncrasies. Ask anyone from Florida where the worst
drivers are and guess what they'll say? What about Washington or Rhode
Island?

I propose that the reason most people complain about Utah drivers (or the
drivers from whatever state they happen to be in at the time) is that they
encounter other drivers who don't drive the way they do. They have different
tendencies. This is only magnified in an environment with drivers in
unfamiliar or crowded conditions, both of which are increasing in Utah
almost daily. Think about Washington D.C. where abrupt lane changes are seen
as simply a necessity, as evidenced by the numerous times I was almost
forced from the roadway by taxis. I hadn't realized that was part of the
local custom. Silly me.

How often have you heard about a driver who was too slow, or wouldn't get
out of the fast lane, or wouldn't let them into the other lane, or in some
other way impeded the first driver's progress and therefore forever damaged
them by way of inconvenience? Of course these people are frustrating, but I
guarantee you have had the same effect on some other person at some time in
your driving life. I am as guilty as anyone else who has spent an angry hour
in the car because someone 50 miles back had cut me off. I am also sure that
I have made a mistake of my own while driving from time to time.

Driving is a cooperative effort by everyone to make it to their destination
without running into each other. Unfortunately, aggressiveness, impatience,
and self-centered intentions are clogging up the gears. Whether it's you
driving too fast, or the other guy driving too slow, it doesn't really
matter. We all just need to chill out a bit. At least that's what my wife
tells me when that vein starts bulging out of my forehead every time I get
on the freeway.

I'm sure many of you disagree with me, and that's fine. I expect it. I'm not
defending bad driving. My point is that there are bad drivers everywhere,
and you know what? The lights aren't always greener on the other side of the
state line. I'm not trying to rip on all other drivers but myself either.
Quite the opposite. I'm trying to bring to light a reality that might
prevent you from giving someone the finger on the freeway only to find out
as you pass that it was your neighbor. Besides, did you ever check the
license plate of that idiot? He's probably from California. They can't drive
their way out of a paper bag.

### END OF RANT. COMMENCE FLAMES. ###

Kenneth - I hope your situation is resolved to your satisfaction. There
certainly is no excuse for that kind of irresponsibility.

Jeremy

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Joseph Hall
2007-08-22 17:54:17 UTC
Permalink
http://www.keloland.com/News/NewsDetail6373.cfm?Id=0,59673

"This year, nine states have considered legislation specifically
banning driving while texting. Washington is the first state to pass a
law, making DWT, a crime with a $100 fine."
Post by Jeremy Hansen
Post by Joseph Hall
Of course,
driving and texting (DWT) at the same time, that would be dangerous
I don't know if you were joking about this or not, but I have witnessed this
exact transgression 3 times in the last 2 months. The first time I saw it I
couldn't believe it was actually happening. The worst case was a
teen-to-early-20s girl turning left onto the NB I-15 on-ramp at the 106th
South intersection at about 4:30 PM. Not exactly an area of light traffic.
Thankfully, for me anyway, I was headed south. But I just kept imagining her
on the freeway, constantly glancing down at her phone which she held with
both hands on the center of the steering wheel (apparently turning that with
her elbows), and typing away furiously with her thumbs. It was like playing
peek-a-boo with oncoming traffic. In fact, I was so mesmerized by her
stupidity that I'm sure I was almost as distracted as she was.
On another note, I have a bit of an axe to grind with the "Utah drivers"
stigma that has already been mentioned. To be blunt, I think it's total
bull.
### THIS IS A RANT. COMMENCE TO IGNORE. ###
I have driven in many different parts of the country, as doubtless many of
you have and, in my experience, there is no shortage of seemingly
incompetent drivers anywhere. I say seemingly because I believe it's really
just my (read our) overinflated perspective of a negative situational
experience that labels other drivers in this way. Driving here is no worse,
from a statistical standpoint, than anywhere else. Utah ranks close to the
middle in most driving related statistics, and lowest by almost half of most
states in % of alcohol related deaths in auto accidents. The bottom line is,
we all have driving idiosyncrasies. Ask anyone from Florida where the worst
drivers are and guess what they'll say? What about Washington or Rhode
Island?
I propose that the reason most people complain about Utah drivers (or the
drivers from whatever state they happen to be in at the time) is that they
encounter other drivers who don't drive the way they do. They have different
tendencies. This is only magnified in an environment with drivers in
unfamiliar or crowded conditions, both of which are increasing in Utah
almost daily. Think about Washington D.C. where abrupt lane changes are seen
as simply a necessity, as evidenced by the numerous times I was almost
forced from the roadway by taxis. I hadn't realized that was part of the
local custom. Silly me.
How often have you heard about a driver who was too slow, or wouldn't get
out of the fast lane, or wouldn't let them into the other lane, or in some
other way impeded the first driver's progress and therefore forever damaged
them by way of inconvenience? Of course these people are frustrating, but I
guarantee you have had the same effect on some other person at some time in
your driving life. I am as guilty as anyone else who has spent an angry hour
in the car because someone 50 miles back had cut me off. I am also sure that
I have made a mistake of my own while driving from time to time.
Driving is a cooperative effort by everyone to make it to their destination
without running into each other. Unfortunately, aggressiveness, impatience,
and self-centered intentions are clogging up the gears. Whether it's you
driving too fast, or the other guy driving too slow, it doesn't really
matter. We all just need to chill out a bit. At least that's what my wife
tells me when that vein starts bulging out of my forehead every time I get
on the freeway.
I'm sure many of you disagree with me, and that's fine. I expect it. I'm not
defending bad driving. My point is that there are bad drivers everywhere,
and you know what? The lights aren't always greener on the other side of the
state line. I'm not trying to rip on all other drivers but myself either.
Quite the opposite. I'm trying to bring to light a reality that might
prevent you from giving someone the finger on the freeway only to find out
as you pass that it was your neighbor. Besides, did you ever check the
license plate of that idiot? He's probably from California. They can't drive
their way out of a paper bag.
### END OF RANT. COMMENCE FLAMES. ###
Kenneth - I hope your situation is resolved to your satisfaction. There
certainly is no excuse for that kind of irresponsibility.
Jeremy
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http://blog.josephhall.com/

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Andrew Jorgensen
2007-08-22 18:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
"This year, nine states have considered legislation specifically
banning driving while texting. Washington is the first state to pass a
law, making DWT, a crime with a $100 fine."
Legislators are such idiots. Specific laws are extremely inefficient.
Making distracted driving a primary offense (the kind you can get
pulled over for) and encouraging the executive branch to enforce the
laws already in place would have the same end result and wouldn't have
to be amended every time a new technology fad comes around.

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Shane Hathaway
2007-08-22 22:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Hansen
On another note, I have a bit of an axe to grind with the "Utah drivers"
stigma that has already been mentioned. To be blunt, I think it's total
bull.
### THIS IS A RANT. COMMENCE TO IGNORE. ###
I have driven in many different parts of the country, as doubtless many of
you have and, in my experience, there is no shortage of seemingly
incompetent drivers anywhere.
In my view, the problem isn't usually incompetence, it's just a mismatch
of driving styles. Different regions of the US seem to have different
styles. If you know your region well enough, you can tell what other
drivers are going to do by subtle hints that constitute a form of body
language, and you can make corresponding safe choices. If you drive in
a region where drivers give different hints, you're not going to see the
hints and you'll get frustrated.

I noticed this especially in DC, since DC has the combined traffic of
several states. Maryland drivers behaved a little differently from
Virginia drivers, and when they came together, mayhem ensued.

New York City is an especially interesting place to drive. There are so
many taxis that the taxis define the driving style. When I drove there,
I mimicked the taxis and discovered I could have an easy time in the
middle of apparent chaos.

A lot of people need something to do while driving. One of my favorite
things to do is predict what the cars around me are going to do. It's a
kind of game. That way I learn people's styles, potentially avoiding
crashes, and I identify overconfident and underconfident drivers so I
can steer clear of them.

Shane


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Von Fugal
2007-08-23 05:46:20 UTC
Permalink
* Shane Hathaway [Wed, 22 Aug 2007 at 16:21 -0600]
Post by Shane Hathaway
In my view, the problem isn't usually incompetence, it's just a mismatch
of driving styles. Different regions of the US seem to have different
styles. If you know your region well enough, you can tell what other
drivers are going to do by subtle hints that constitute a form of body
language, and you can make corresponding safe choices. If you drive in
a region where drivers give different hints, you're not going to see the
hints and you'll get frustrated.
I noticed this especially in DC, since DC has the combined traffic of
several states. Maryland drivers behaved a little differently from
Virginia drivers, and when they came together, mayhem ensued.
New York City is an especially interesting place to drive. There are so
many taxis that the taxis define the driving style. When I drove there,
I mimicked the taxis and discovered I could have an easy time in the
middle of apparent chaos.
A lot of people need something to do while driving. One of my favorite
things to do is predict what the cars around me are going to do. It's a
kind of game. That way I learn people's styles, potentially avoiding
crashes, and I identify overconfident and underconfident drivers so I
can steer clear of them.
Shane
This is soo true. I also love playing that game, except it's not really
a game, it's called driving. IOW engaging your mind in the task of not
just steering your vehicle, but also making decisions on how to steer it
based on conditions around you, and those conditions include other
vehicles, what they are doing, their state of mind. Now I will make a
confession. I am an extremely aggressive driver. But I am very mindful
to be so in as safe a manner as possible. I put a great amount of
concentration into whatever it is I'm about to do, possible outcomes if
the cars around me do what I predict they will, or outcomes if the cars
do unimaginably stupid things. If I am talking on a phone (which I _do_
do occasionally, but try not to make a habit of) then I immediately tone
down my driving, stay 3 car lengths behind, focus more mind power on
'having an out' (anyone who doesn't know what this is needs to go back
to driving school, IMO) and less on getting around that annoying car.
Sometimes I convince myself that aggressive driving is actually safer,
because you're more engaged in driving or something. But then I'm not
always convinced and I honestly don't know if I'm full of it at those
times or what.
Anyway, what was my point? Oh yeah, body language, or should I say
chassis language? I think it's a game everyone should play, and get good
at. Just today I predicted a truck with a trailer was going to take the
north exit off the 215 going east just behind me as I veered off the south
exit, and I turned out to be right. I can often tell when cars are going
to turn right and so I decide to stay behind them because my lane will
open up, even when they don't use a blinker (which no one does, at least
not early enough (if I can tell they're turning before they turn on that
blinker, then they've turned it on too late)). Anyway, I think there are
certain regional cues, but there are also some universal cues. The
degree to which recognizing said cues will help you not crash is
proportional to the risk level of your situation. If you're distracted
you're less able to pay attention to those cues, but if at the same time
you considerably lower your risk level, then you're chance of accident
actually balances out. Therefore, I believe the study that concludes
there is no connection with cell phone usage and accidents. I'm annoyed
with car/phone users for an entirely different reason. They revert into
those pokey defensive drivers that only get in my way ;). Every once in
a while one will do something incredibly stupid and almost cause an
accident or at least make me take evasive manouvers. But those are no
more likely than the same happening when the culprit is eating, or
changing stations, or whatever other distraction have you. Just because
a cell phone may now be the most common distraction in this age doesn't
mean it's the worst or most dangerous distraction, or that people
wouldn't find other distractions if they couldn't use the cell phone.
Texting, on the other hand, is an abhorrence, whether or not driving,
though especially so while driving. (OK, texting wouldn't be such an
abhorrence on it's own if it didn't generate way more revenue for the
big boys than it ever had merit to). I would fully support a law banning
texting. Although a law banning distracted driving in general I agree
would actually be better, as the officer would probably be far more
prone to cite someone for texting (I would hope) whilst leaving the door
open for him to cite for changing pants or giving the baby in the back
seat a bottle while changing lanes or what have you. My rant has become
way to long I think, so over and out.

Von Fugal
Shane Hathaway
2007-08-23 16:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Von Fugal
This is soo true. I also love playing that game, except it's not really
a game, it's called driving. IOW engaging your mind in the task of not
just steering your vehicle, but also making decisions on how to steer it
based on conditions around you, and those conditions include other
vehicles, what they are doing, their state of mind. Now I will make a
confession. I am an extremely aggressive driver. But I am very mindful
to be so in as safe a manner as possible. I put a great amount of
concentration into whatever it is I'm about to do, possible outcomes if
the cars around me do what I predict they will, or outcomes if the cars
do unimaginably stupid things.
That sounds excellent, except for the sentence "I am an extremely
aggressive driver". ;-) OTOH, you didn't say what an aggressive driver
does. If you mean tailgating NASCAR-style, that's obviously stupid and
dangerous yet all too common. But if you mean holding back and then
finding an opportunity to pass several slow cars all at once, that's
what I like to do too.

Shane


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Von Fugal
2007-08-23 16:34:43 UTC
Permalink
* Shane Hathaway [Thu, 23 Aug 2007 at 10:26 -0600]
<quote>
Post by Shane Hathaway
That sounds excellent, except for the sentence "I am an extremely
aggressive driver". ;-) OTOH, you didn't say what an aggressive driver
does. If you mean tailgating NASCAR-style, that's obviously stupid and
dangerous yet all too common. But if you mean holding back and then
finding an opportunity to pass several slow cars all at once, that's
what I like to do too.
Not tailgating nascar style, no. I probably follow just a little closer
than I should, and I _occasionally_ squeeze right up behind one and in
front of another, but only for as long as necessary. A bad thing, I
know. Thing is, the slower everyone else drives, the worse I drive. It's
the annoyance factor.

Von Fugal
Von Fugal
2007-08-23 16:38:57 UTC
Permalink
I'm probably firmly establishing my guilt here as a hated utah driver.
At the same time, I really don't understand, it's not the aggresive
drivers I find so baneful of Utah, it's the drivers that get in your
way, don't signal, take that right turn really slow right from the
middle of the lane, take forever to get into the turn lane as they slow
down, block the fast lane as if on a mission from God to make others
obey the speed limit, etc, etc...

Von Fugal
Dr. Scott S. Jones
2007-08-23 16:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Von Fugal
I'm probably firmly establishing my guilt here as a hated utah driver.
At the same time, I really don't understand, it's not the aggresive
drivers I find so baneful of Utah, it's the drivers that get in your
way, don't signal, take that right turn really slow right from the
middle of the lane, take forever to get into the turn lane as they slow
down, block the fast lane as if on a mission from God to make others
obey the speed limit, etc, etc...
Von:

I feel the same way. Really, it boils down to prevailing culture here. When
I lived in California, even though CA has a sort of 'laid-back' mentality,
not uptight and pressured as they are in the east coast, when you get behind
the wheel you know you better get in, get up to speed and then get over,
signal and get outta the way, else you'll get crushed. Here, there are so
many distracted and rather uncaring drivers, that you'll always find the
pokies just ambling along, never getting MOVING.

Left lane squatters? That's my dad. Why can everyone stay in the right lane
or stay right, signal, pass and then move back to the right? It's beyond
logic, how so many drive.

Scott
Post by Von Fugal
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Jeremy Hansen
2007-08-23 15:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shane Hathaway
In my view, the problem isn't usually incompetence, it's just a mismatch
of driving styles.
Yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. What is often labeled
incompetence is most often just the mismatch of styles that you mention.

I noticed this especially in DC, since DC has the combined traffic of
Post by Shane Hathaway
several states. Maryland drivers behaved a little differently from
Virginia drivers, and when they came together, mayhem ensued.
I'm glad you had the same experience as me in DC. Well, maybe not glad, but
at least it confirms my point. What was really crazy was driving from rural
Virginia to DC. outside the metro area, the traffic runs at a pace just
slightly quicker than horse and buggy. But as you approach the district, it
gets much faster and more unpredictable. Luckily, taking the Metro proved to
be the somewhat less insane.

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Matthew Walker
2007-08-23 14:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Hansen
### THIS IS A RANT. COMMENCE TO IGNORE. ###
I have driven in many different parts of the country, as doubtless many of
you have and, in my experience, there is no shortage of seemingly
incompetent drivers anywhere.
Well, I don't have much personal experience in that area, but my father, who was a
professional truck driver for many years, said that Utah is /the/ worst place to drive
in the country. He drove the entire lower 48, coast to coast for 15+ years.
--
Matthew Walker
Kydance Hosting & Consulting
LAMP Specialist

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Andrew Jorgensen
2007-08-23 14:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Walker
Well, I don't have much personal experience in that area, but my father, who was a
professional truck driver for many years, said that Utah is /the/ worst place to drive
in the country. He drove the entire lower 48, coast to coast for 15+ years.
The only time I drove across several states I noticed this too.
Everywhere else it felt like we were all driving together, then when
we hit the Utah border it was every man for himself. It was like
crossing that border had a direct effect on people's aggression.

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Levi Pearson
2007-08-23 15:14:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Jorgensen
The only time I drove across several states I noticed this too.
Everywhere else it felt like we were all driving together, then when
we hit the Utah border it was every man for himself. It was like
crossing that border had a direct effect on people's aggression.
That's funny; I felt the same way when driving out to California and I
passed through Las Vegas. On the other side, it felt like the
aggression level went up 2x.

--Levi

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Jonathan Ellis
2007-08-23 15:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Walker
Post by Jeremy Hansen
### THIS IS A RANT. COMMENCE TO IGNORE. ###
I have driven in many different parts of the country, as doubtless many of
you have and, in my experience, there is no shortage of seemingly
incompetent drivers anywhere.
Well, I don't have much personal experience in that area, but my father, who was a
professional truck driver for many years, said that Utah is /the/ worst place to drive
in the country. He drove the entire lower 48, coast to coast for 15+ years.
FWIW, none of the people from the East coast with whom I have
discussed driving and traffic thought Utah was worse than their home
state.

-Jonathan

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Joseph Hall
2007-08-23 16:23:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
FWIW, none of the people from the East coast with whom I have
discussed driving and traffic thought Utah was worse than their home
state.
I'm in Boston right now, actually. I've only been here a few days, but
I'm amazed every day at how much better Boston drivers are than Utah
drivers. I also used to live about an hour north of Boston, and I
ended up meeting a surprising amount of Utahns there, as well as an
inordinate number of locals who had driven in Utah in the past. Not a
single one of them that I spoke with on the subject had anything good
to say about Utah drivers. Several of them noted how much more they
enjoy driving in New England than in Utah.

I've driven in several other states (I drove to New Hampshire 5 years
ago and then back to Utah 4 years ago). The easiest drivers to get
along with, by far, were California drivers. The absolute worst,
edging out even Utah, were Idaho drivers. Utah was an easy second.
Boston is crazy, but more because the roads are a mess (designed
hundreds of years ago by cows) than because the drivers are aggressive
(they want to be there yesterday).
--
Joseph
http://blog.josephhall.com/

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Corey Edwards
2007-08-23 16:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
I've driven in several other states (I drove to New Hampshire 5 years
ago and then back to Utah 4 years ago). The easiest drivers to get
along with, by far, were California drivers. The absolute worst,
edging out even Utah, were Idaho drivers.
What you say?!? The last time I drove from here (Idaho Falls) to Logan I
notice a distinct negative difference. My main impression is the lack of
courtesy. Everybody seems to be in such a hurry. Allowing somebody to
merge in front of you would add precious seconds to your trip. Oh, the
humanity!

Now driving south of BYU campus in Provo, that's a whole different
world. I don't *ever* want to go there again.

Corey



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Shane Hathaway
2007-08-23 16:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corey Edwards
Post by Joseph Hall
I've driven in several other states (I drove to New Hampshire 5 years
ago and then back to Utah 4 years ago). The easiest drivers to get
along with, by far, were California drivers. The absolute worst,
edging out even Utah, were Idaho drivers.
What you say?!? The last time I drove from here (Idaho Falls) to Logan I
notice a distinct negative difference. My main impression is the lack of
courtesy. Everybody seems to be in such a hurry. Allowing somebody to
merge in front of you would add precious seconds to your trip. Oh, the
humanity!
We're quite a far-flung group, aren't we? I wonder how many states are
represented. We have Utah, Idaho, Massachusetts, ...?

Shane


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Dr. Scott S. Jones
2007-08-23 16:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shane Hathaway
Post by Corey Edwards
What you say?!? The last time I drove from here (Idaho Falls) to Logan I
notice a distinct negative difference. My main impression is the lack of
courtesy. Everybody seems to be in such a hurry. Allowing somebody to
merge in front of you would add precious seconds to your trip. Oh, the
humanity!
We're quite a far-flung group, aren't we? I wonder how many states are
represented. We have Utah, Idaho, Massachusetts, ...?
Shane

You forgot Utah County(try). It's a microcosm of odd thinking all its own!

Happy Valllllleeeeeeeeeee!


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Doran L. Barton
2007-08-23 18:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Not long ago, Dr. Scott S. Jones proclaimed...
Post by Dr. Scott S. Jones
You forgot Utah County(try). It's a microcosm of odd thinking all its own!
I've driven a lot between Logan and Utah County over the years. The WORST,
most aggressive, self-centered drivers I've run into were on State Street
in Orem, Lindon, and American Fork. Whew.
--
fozz-***@public.gmane.org is Doran L. Barton, president/CTO, Iodynamics LLC
Iodynamics: IT and Web services by Linux/Open Source specialists
"Now is your chance to have your ears pierced and get an extra pair to
take home, too!"
-- Seen in a newspaper ad
Nicholas Leippe
2007-08-23 17:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corey Edwards
Post by Joseph Hall
I've driven in several other states (I drove to New Hampshire 5 years
ago and then back to Utah 4 years ago). The easiest drivers to get
along with, by far, were California drivers. The absolute worst,
edging out even Utah, were Idaho drivers.
What you say?!? The last time I drove from here (Idaho Falls) to Logan I
notice a distinct negative difference. My main impression is the lack of
courtesy. Everybody seems to be in such a hurry. Allowing somebody to
merge in front of you would add precious seconds to your trip. Oh, the
humanity!
It always makes me smirk when people put all sorts of hurried effort to gain
one car length ahead, only to catch up with them at the next light.

Another favorite is when you signal to change lanes, and the car behind you in
the lane you want speeds up to block you.
Post by Corey Edwards
Now driving south of BYU campus in Provo, that's a whole different
world. I don't *ever* want to go there again.
Culture is definitely the largest issue imo. My father has travelled the world
frequently as a pilot. I recall him mentioning once that in Japan, (Hong
Kong), there is no sense of entitlement on the road. If someone squeezes in
right in front of someone, their attitude is "he needed that space, ok."

Here, it feels like people think they 'own' the space in front of and around
them while driving. While for safety's sake, space is good, the sense of
entitlement breeds frustration and sometimes rage when it is stepped on.

In California, at rush hour, it seems that everyone has gotten the idea that
there just is no space, so deal with it. I've been on 4-lane highways where
all four lanes were literally half car lengths apart, all doing 75. Just
squeeze the packets in tighter and send them down the line. Hover your brake
constantly, because there are no 'outs'.

In Puerto Rico, it is yet an entirely different driving culture. as far as
rating it, I'd say it could be considered 'worse' than Utah. But again, it's
just different. There, people use the democratic method--strength in
numbers. If there's a huge line of cars to turn left, they don't care what
the light says. Once that train gets moving, they just keep it going
(blatantly through red lights) until someone breaks the chain and the
oncoming traffic or other direction can get started. (Note they only do this
for left turns). Even better, is that when there are cars waiting in the left
turn lane, other cars will come up along the right and dive in front of the
line, sometimes creating a second line.

There are some other nuances that unless you know them will get you into a
wreck very quickly.

It seems crazy the first time you see it, but once you learn how they behave
you can predict what they'll do and drive accordingly. I imagine similar
could be said of many driving cultures.



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Nicholas Leippe
2007-08-23 17:11:39 UTC
Permalink
in Japan, (Hong Kong),
Should've read Japan, (or Hong Kong?),

I can't remember which.


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Corey Edwards
2007-08-23 17:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicholas Leippe
in Japan, (Hong Kong),
Should've read Japan, (or Hong Kong?),
Japan has such narrow and windy roads that without a lot of give and
take, nobody would get anywhere. You frequently need to pull over and
allow oncoming traffic to pass because there just isn't any room
otherwise.

They also have a different mindset toward honking, namely that they do
it all the time. Somebody allows you to pass, honk "thank you". Pull up
behind somebody, honk to let them know you're there. It's very
disconcerting at first, maddening in fact ("quit honking at me, I'm not
doing anything!!!"), but you get used to it.

And one final curiousity, at night drivers turn their lights off at red
lights so as to not blind the opposing traffic. It's not a law, but
pretty much everybody does it.

Corey



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Jason Hall
2007-08-23 17:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corey Edwards
And one final curiousity, at night drivers turn their lights off at red
lights so as to not blind the opposing traffic. It's not a law, but
pretty much everybody does it.
And in most of Brasil, and the Philippines, they just don't use the lights
at night the majority of the time. They think it wears the batteries. I
thought my missionary hitchhiking stories were scary, then I went on a long
trip with my native president. 75mph on a narrow road, late night, no
lights.

/me wipes the cold sweat away
--
Jayce^

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Shane Hathaway
2007-08-23 17:51:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Hall
And in most of Brasil, and the Philippines, they just don't use the lights
at night the majority of the time. They think it wears the batteries. I
thought my missionary hitchhiking stories were scary, then I went on a long
trip with my native president. 75mph on a narrow road, late night, no
lights.
I suspect you're talking about Presidente Saraiva!

Shane


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Jason Hall
2007-08-23 19:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shane Hathaway
I suspect you're talking about Presidente Saraiva!
;-p ayup, that man was a demon behind the wheel.
--
Jayce^

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Shane Hathaway
2007-08-23 17:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicholas Leippe
In California, at rush hour, it seems that everyone has gotten the idea that
there just is no space, so deal with it. I've been on 4-lane highways where
all four lanes were literally half car lengths apart, all doing 75. Just
squeeze the packets in tighter and send them down the line. Hover your brake
constantly, because there are no 'outs'.
Quite true. In a sense, CA drivers follow the same principles that
trains depend on. My wife found it nerve-wracking, but I thought it was
pretty cool.

Although it works smoothly most of the time, the CA system still can't
avoid the fact that humans have a minimum response time of nearly 1
second, and that's only when they're very alert. However, if we could
wirelessly and securely transmit a brake signal between cars, we could
fix that hole and the freeways could behave even more like trains. I'm
not talking about cars that drive themselves, I'm just talking about a
single enhancement to human response time that could save lives in
congested areas.

I've been tempted to set up computer simulations of such a system. The
simulation would include many kinds of drivers. The simulation might
even be complex enough to require a serious Linux cluster. (Ha! I'm on
topic!)

Oh well, just dreaming.

Shane

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Nicholas Leippe
2007-08-23 17:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shane Hathaway
Although it works smoothly most of the time, the CA system still can't
avoid the fact that humans have a minimum response time of nearly 1
second, and that's only when they're very alert. However, if we could
wirelessly and securely transmit a brake signal between cars, we could
fix that hole and the freeways could behave even more like trains. I'm
not talking about cars that drive themselves, I'm just talking about a
single enhancement to human response time that could save lives in
congested areas.
I've been tempted to set up computer simulations of such a system. The
simulation would include many kinds of drivers. The simulation might
even be complex enough to require a serious Linux cluster. (Ha! I'm on
topic!)
Just a few years ago I read an article saying they were testing some automated
cars down near LA. They were applying similar ideas--that if cars would
communicate to each other they could manage their distance far more
accurately than a human--they were talking just feet apart at highway speeds.

You can easily see how it could produce a more efficient system--far more
throughput. It would also get rid of the transient waves or 'bubbles' that
you observe hours after an incident. The problem is that drivers care about
their individual latency ('late' pun not intended, but fully applicable)
rather than the net throughput of the roadway system. But it really is just
a packet network, but where every packet is demanding QoS.


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Shane Hathaway
2007-08-23 16:42:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
Post by Jonathan Ellis
FWIW, none of the people from the East coast with whom I have
discussed driving and traffic thought Utah was worse than their home
state.
I'm in Boston right now, actually. I've only been here a few days, but
I'm amazed every day at how much better Boston drivers are than Utah
drivers. I also used to live about an hour north of Boston, and I
ended up meeting a surprising amount of Utahns there, as well as an
inordinate number of locals who had driven in Utah in the past. Not a
single one of them that I spoke with on the subject had anything good
to say about Utah drivers. Several of them noted how much more they
enjoy driving in New England than in Utah.
IMHO it depends on the time you drive. Rush-hour traffic in Utah is
easier to get along with because at that time, nearly everyone is so
predictable it's like a machine, albeit a fairly slow machine. Driving
at other times seems to be more dangerous because the racing enthusiasts
zipping past the poky drivers cause an increase in entropy.

In most of the other big cities I've driven, it seems to be rush hour
*all the time*, interspersed with temporary conversions of large
freeways to parking lots. LA and DC especially. Perhaps the incredible
volume forces some humility on the drivers.

Shane


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Hans Fugal
2007-08-25 14:23:12 UTC
Permalink
People don't always blame their locality. I grew up in Santa Fe, and the
"bad drivers" were the Texans visiting the ski area (Texas for all its
bigness has no mountains, you may recall).

In Connecticut/Rhode Island people recognized that drivers were
inconsiderate, selfish, aggressive, and downright crazy, but it was more
of a "look how crazy we are" joke than self-despisement. I think the
average person was more attentive and alert there.

In California, and probably places like Washington DC, the obstacles
(lots of traffic) breed certain driving tendencies. People adapt. To
people used to light traffic (yes, most of Utah still counts as light
traffic in the grand scheme) it might be bad driving (your cab
experience), but to them it's a way of life. In Providence there's an
on/off ramp combination similar to the one between 800 north and 1600
north in Orem on I-15 northbound, but with 10 times as many cars trying
to merge in and get off, and they do it at full speed. You literally
have to have the passenger roll down his window and get eye contact and
point to where you want to merge (although your blinker is already on).

Utah driving is its own special flavor as is the local driving anywhere.
IMHO Utah driving is one of the less excuseable forms. In Utah you don't
have to be aggressive. You don't have to weave through six lanes of
traffic. You usually don't have to deal with crazy curving roads and
one-way mazes through the city. You don't have to drive for an hour to
go 10 blocks. All you have to do is pay attention to the road and be the
slightest bit patient. I never cease to be amazed at the apparent
inability of so many Utahns to pay attention and be slightly patient.
Post by Jeremy Hansen
Post by Joseph Hall
Of course,
driving and texting (DWT) at the same time, that would be dangerous
I don't know if you were joking about this or not, but I have witnessed this
exact transgression 3 times in the last 2 months. The first time I saw it I
couldn't believe it was actually happening. The worst case was a
teen-to-early-20s girl turning left onto the NB I-15 on-ramp at the 106th
South intersection at about 4:30 PM. Not exactly an area of light traffic.
Thankfully, for me anyway, I was headed south. But I just kept imagining her
on the freeway, constantly glancing down at her phone which she held with
both hands on the center of the steering wheel (apparently turning that with
her elbows), and typing away furiously with her thumbs. It was like playing
peek-a-boo with oncoming traffic. In fact, I was so mesmerized by her
stupidity that I'm sure I was almost as distracted as she was.
On another note, I have a bit of an axe to grind with the "Utah drivers"
stigma that has already been mentioned. To be blunt, I think it's total
bull.
### THIS IS A RANT. COMMENCE TO IGNORE. ###
I have driven in many different parts of the country, as doubtless many of
you have and, in my experience, there is no shortage of seemingly
incompetent drivers anywhere. I say seemingly because I believe it's really
just my (read our) overinflated perspective of a negative situational
experience that labels other drivers in this way. Driving here is no worse,
from a statistical standpoint, than anywhere else. Utah ranks close to the
middle in most driving related statistics, and lowest by almost half of most
states in % of alcohol related deaths in auto accidents. The bottom line is,
we all have driving idiosyncrasies. Ask anyone from Florida where the worst
drivers are and guess what they'll say? What about Washington or Rhode
Island?
I propose that the reason most people complain about Utah drivers (or the
drivers from whatever state they happen to be in at the time) is that they
encounter other drivers who don't drive the way they do. They have different
tendencies. This is only magnified in an environment with drivers in
unfamiliar or crowded conditions, both of which are increasing in Utah
almost daily. Think about Washington D.C. where abrupt lane changes are seen
as simply a necessity, as evidenced by the numerous times I was almost
forced from the roadway by taxis. I hadn't realized that was part of the
local custom. Silly me.
How often have you heard about a driver who was too slow, or wouldn't get
out of the fast lane, or wouldn't let them into the other lane, or in some
other way impeded the first driver's progress and therefore forever damaged
them by way of inconvenience? Of course these people are frustrating, but I
guarantee you have had the same effect on some other person at some time in
your driving life. I am as guilty as anyone else who has spent an angry hour
in the car because someone 50 miles back had cut me off. I am also sure that
I have made a mistake of my own while driving from time to time.
Driving is a cooperative effort by everyone to make it to their destination
without running into each other. Unfortunately, aggressiveness, impatience,
and self-centered intentions are clogging up the gears. Whether it's you
driving too fast, or the other guy driving too slow, it doesn't really
matter. We all just need to chill out a bit. At least that's what my wife
tells me when that vein starts bulging out of my forehead every time I get
on the freeway.
I'm sure many of you disagree with me, and that's fine. I expect it. I'm not
defending bad driving. My point is that there are bad drivers everywhere,
and you know what? The lights aren't always greener on the other side of the
state line. I'm not trying to rip on all other drivers but myself either.
Quite the opposite. I'm trying to bring to light a reality that might
prevent you from giving someone the finger on the freeway only to find out
as you pass that it was your neighbor. Besides, did you ever check the
license plate of that idiot? He's probably from California. They can't drive
their way out of a paper bag.
### END OF RANT. COMMENCE FLAMES. ###
Kenneth - I hope your situation is resolved to your satisfaction. There
certainly is no excuse for that kind of irresponsibility.
Jeremy
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Merrill Oveson
2007-08-23 22:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Studies has shown that the passenger next to the driver in the car actually
assists the driver.
He/she will notice potentially dangerous situations and alert the driver.
The conversation will also pause if the driver is performing an action which
requires a lot of attention, i.e. turning left at a light, passing other
vehicles, merging, etc. The driver gets no such help, only a huge
distraction from someone on the other end of a cell phone (that person
simply has no idea what the driver is experiencing.)
Utah has a law against distracted driving - whether that involves a cell
phone, eating, or even dealing with children or even a spouse. Arguing with
your spouse while driving is very dangerous, unless of course you need to
stay awake. In that case, choose something that makes you both really
really mad!
Post by Joseph Hall
I don't get it. Why should talking on a cell phone be any different
from holding a drink in one hand and talking to somebody in the
passenger seat while driving? People do that all the time, and I have
yet to hear somebody complain about it. Or if you're using a
hands-free set, how should that be any different from driving with
both hands and talking to the person in the passenger seat, or the
back seat?
It doesn't make sense to me. It shouldn't be any different. Of course,
driving and texting (DWT) at the same time, that would be dangerous.
Post by Corey Edwards
Post by Mister E
ps - recent studies show that cell phone users, while driving, have
the
Post by Corey Edwards
Post by Mister E
same reaction time as do legally intoxicated drivers, so this is no
lite
Post by Corey Edwards
Post by Mister E
thing for me personally
A study at the University of Utah, no less. It showed the people who
were at the legal limit did as well or better than those using cell
phones. If anybody is wondering, using a hands free set did not make a
difference. It's not a lack of dexterity that causes the danger, but
being mentally detached from the situation.
Wow. This is getting really OT. Um... I think they used a computer to do
the study. They should have used Linux if they didn't.
Corey
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--
Joseph
http://blog.josephhall.com/
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Nicholas Leippe
2007-08-23 22:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merrill Oveson
Studies has shown that the passenger next to the driver in the car actually
assists the driver.
He/she will notice potentially dangerous situations and alert the driver.
The conversation will also pause if the driver is performing an action
which requires a lot of attention, i.e. turning left at a light, passing
other vehicles, merging, etc. The driver gets no such help, only a huge
distraction from someone on the other end of a cell phone (that person
simply has no idea what the driver is experiencing.)
This all makes sense, and I agree about distracted driving. Still, all this
attention on cell phones makes me wonder, why has this same issue not
surfaced regarding the police and their radios, or truckers and their CBs
during the past 30 years?



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justin
2007-08-23 22:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicholas Leippe
This all makes sense, and I agree about distracted driving. Still, all this
attention on cell phones makes me wonder, why has this same issue not
surfaced regarding the police and their radios, or truckers and their CBs
during the past 30 years?
i wonder how many truckers and cops chat with their girlfriends over the radio?

justin
--
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Matthew Walker
2007-08-23 22:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by justin
Post by Nicholas Leippe
This all makes sense, and I agree about distracted driving. Still, all this
attention on cell phones makes me wonder, why has this same issue not
surfaced regarding the police and their radios, or truckers and their CBs
during the past 30 years?
i wonder how many truckers and cops chat with their girlfriends over the radio?
Turn on the CB in Nevada sometime. :)
--
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Kydance Hosting & Consulting
LAMP Specialist

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Joseph Hall
2007-08-23 23:02:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merrill Oveson
Studies has shown that the passenger next to the driver in the car actually
assists the driver.
Merrill, I bow to your superior insight. It makes sense, and makes me
re-evaluate my position on the matter.
Post by Merrill Oveson
This all makes sense, and I agree about distracted driving. Still, all this
attention on cell phones makes me wonder, why has this same issue not
surfaced regarding the police and their radios, or truckers and their CBs
during the past 30 years?
I've often wondered about the cops that I see reading email and
playing solitaire while driving. No, not while sitting at a red light.
While the car is _in motion_ and the cop is _at the wheel_. The last
time I asked a cop about his questionable driving habits (in a
civilian vehicle), he responded that he had been professionally
trained.

I'm glad the police academy includes a course on moving red queen to
black king while making a left-hand turn.
--
Joseph
http://blog.josephhall.com/

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Jason Hall
2007-08-23 23:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hall
I'm glad the police academy includes a course on moving red queen to
black king while making a left-hand turn.
Didn't realize you could get your MCSE at the academy (Minesweeper Certified
Solitaire Expert)
--
Jayce^

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Jonathan Ellis
2007-08-22 04:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister E
ps - recent studies show that cell phone users, while driving, have the
same reaction time as do legally intoxicated drivers, so this is no lite
thing for me personally... and I would have probably done differently
above had it happened recently, and I was in a position to issue a
citation. However, it's the only real life instance I could share at
this point.
FWIW, a different study looking at real-world statistical data just
found no correlation between cell phone use and accidents:
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/08/13_cellphone.shtml

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Steve
2007-08-22 04:37:29 UTC
Permalink
The cell phone thing reminds me of that old classic bumper sticker...
"I wonder if you'ld drive any better if I took that cell phone and
jammed it up your arse"
Post by Jonathan Ellis
Post by Mister E
ps - recent studies show that cell phone users, while driving, have the
same reaction time as do legally intoxicated drivers, so this is no lite
thing for me personally... and I would have probably done differently
above had it happened recently, and I was in a position to issue a
citation. However, it's the only real life instance I could share at
this point.
FWIW, a different study looking at real-world statistical data just
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/08/13_cellphone.shtml
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Doran L. Barton
2007-08-22 05:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Not long ago, Steve proclaimed...
Post by Steve
The cell phone thing reminds me of that old classic bumper sticker...
"I wonder if you'ld drive any better if I took that cell phone and
jammed it up your arse"
That's not bad. I've seen this one and it made me laugh so hard I nearly
ran off the road: "Are you having phone sex or is this how you usually
drive?"

-=Fozz
--
fozz-***@public.gmane.org is Doran L. Barton, president/CTO, Iodynamics LLC
Iodynamics: IT and Web services by Linux/Open Source specialists
"We make up prescriptions!"
-- On a Japan pharmacy sign
Mister E
2007-08-22 04:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
Post by Mister E
ps - recent studies show that cell phone users, while driving, have the
same reaction time as do legally intoxicated drivers, so this is no lite
thing for me personally... and I would have probably done differently
above had it happened recently, and I was in a position to issue a
citation. However, it's the only real life instance I could share at
this point.
FWIW, a different study looking at real-world statistical data just
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/08/13_cellphone.shtml
that is interesting. But it only measures general cell phone use
compared to accident numbers in seven states. I like to see studies
that revolve around distracted driving statistics rather than cell phone
usage in general. While useful in a general way, I don't think it mutes
the other studies that measure more along the lines of impaired reflexes.

Mister Ed


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Clint Savage
2007-08-22 06:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
FWIW, a different study looking at real-world statistical data just
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/08/13_cellphone.shtml
I love it when studies cancel themselves out.

Kenneth, I am sorry to hear about your incident, but glad you are okay.

Cheers,

Clint

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Shane Hathaway
2007-08-22 21:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
Post by Mister E
ps - recent studies show that cell phone users, while driving, have the
same reaction time as do legally intoxicated drivers, so this is no lite
thing for me personally... and I would have probably done differently
above had it happened recently, and I was in a position to issue a
citation. However, it's the only real life instance I could share at
this point.
FWIW, a different study looking at real-world statistical data just
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/08/13_cellphone.shtml
This study seems to say that cell phones are no more distracting than
what drivers did before. If that's true, then taking cell phones away
from drivers will not reduce crash rates; former cell phone drivers will
just seek other distractions.

Shane


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Gary Thornock
2007-08-21 22:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Welcome to Utah, this is pretty standard fare especially for
Utah county.
It's not just Utah. A few years ago I was rear-ended on the
freeway by a drunk driver north of Denver. Both vehicles were
totalled.

His insurance paid off the loan on my truck, and paid something
on the order of ten cents on the dollar for medical expenses. He
did get a citation out of the deal -- a whopping $35 fine.

If I'm ever in a situation like that again, I want the lawyers
there *before the ambulance*. I'm not sure if they'll be able to
do much better even then, but it's the best strategy I can come
up with.


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Scott Barlow
2007-08-21 20:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Are there any lawyers or police officers that can explain to me what I
am missing?
Suggestions? Comments?
Kenneth,

I happen to have a neighbor that would probably be interested in hearing
your story:

http://provoinjurylaw.com/
*Flickinger & Sutterfield P.C.
*300 Esquire Building
3000 North University Avenue
Provo, UT 84601
Telephone: +1 801 370-0505

Ask for Mark *Flickinger*, and let him know I suggested that you contact
him.

Good luck, and sorry to hear about the mishap. Justice should be sought.

Regards,

Scott Barlow

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Jacob Albretsen
2007-08-22 03:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Barlow
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Are there any lawyers or police officers that can explain to me what I
am missing?
Suggestions? Comments?
Kenneth,
I happen to have a neighbor that would probably be interested in hearing
http://provoinjurylaw.com/
*Flickinger & Sutterfield P.C.
Maybe it's situations like these where the cops aren't doing their jobs that
is giving lawfirms business. I'm not saying anything negative about this
particular firm, just the fact that if the cops are not doing their job and
legally they can be held accountable, it's a money making opportunity for
both the firm and the client.


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Mister E
2007-08-22 04:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacob Albretsen
Post by Scott Barlow
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Are there any lawyers or police officers that can explain to me what I
am missing?
Suggestions? Comments?
Kenneth,
I happen to have a neighbor that would probably be interested in hearing
http://provoinjurylaw.com/
*Flickinger & Sutterfield P.C.
Maybe it's situations like these where the cops aren't doing their jobs that
is giving lawfirms business. I'm not saying anything negative about this
particular firm, just the fact that if the cops are not doing their job and
legally they can be held accountable, it's a money making opportunity for
both the firm and the client.
I missed the original post somehow. Just looked it up.

The law firm won't be interested... unless you were injured ...
otherwise it's not a case that will yield sufficient income unless you
have the funding to bankroll it. Even then, they might want a slam dunk
case (quick money).

You might want to take this to the media and see if they are willing to
build a crusade around it, but don't be surprised if they shrug it off.

The "justice enough" is not uncommon, even though it was frustrating and
not really justice for you (vehicle #2), especially when it appeared to
be intentional with a resulting flight from the scene, based on your
account.

I think this comes down to evidence and building the case and they
didn't feel like they had a lot to go off of, since they arrived at the
scene after you had followed the vehicle and had come to a complete
stop. At that point it becomes a he said she said ordeal, which is not
much to go off in such a situation. Had they taken her in pursuit,
and/or there were witnesses, that might have been a different legal outcome.

So take what legal remedies you can (sue for damages or get repairs paid
fer, etc). Talk to the local media and see if it appeals to them to
help your situation. Then be thankful you walked away, and with a cool
story to tell yer grandkids later.

Mister Ed




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Kenneth Burgener
2007-08-22 05:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister E
So take what legal remedies you can (sue for damages or get repairs paid
fer, etc). Talk to the local media and see if it appeals to them to
help your situation. Then be thankful you walked away, and with a cool
story to tell yer grandkids later.
Mister Ed
Great point! It will be an awesome story to tell the grandkids. It
will even been cooler if I can get a copy of the 911 tape :-)

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Nicholas Leippe
2007-08-22 15:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister E
I think this comes down to evidence and building the case and they
didn't feel like they had a lot to go off of, since they arrived at the
scene after you had followed the vehicle and had come to a complete
stop. At that point it becomes a he said she said ordeal, which is not
much to go off in such a situation. Had they taken her in pursuit,
and/or there were witnesses, that might have been a different legal outcome.
How is 'he said she said' all there would be to go off of, when there is the
obvious, matching, physical evidence that the one car impacted the other?

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Grant Shipley
2007-08-21 20:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
I was thinking, if the roles were reversed, I am fairly certain that I
would have spend the night in jail, and probably would have accrued all
3 citations. How on Earth did she get off Scott free?
As sad as this sounds...... She was probably smoking hot. That is why
she got off free.


--
grant

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Wade Preston Shearer
2007-08-21 20:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Shipley
As sad as this sounds...... She was probably smoking hot. That is why
she got off free.
Yeah… how long did you say the officers were in her house?
Steve
2007-08-21 21:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Just another thought, but the car dealer would likely be liable as well.
Post by Grant Shipley
As sad as this sounds...... She was probably smoking hot. That is why
she got off free.
Yeah… how long did you say the officers were in her house?
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Kenneth Burgener
2007-08-22 15:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
Well the weekend finally ended and I went down to the police station to
pick up the report. The report basically said vehicle 1 hit vehicle 2
from behind. There was no mention of a hit and run (I believe a $300
ticket), no mention of her using prescription drugs, and a big blaring
"no insurance" written where my sanity should have been. If the follow
up found there was no insurance, why on earth was a no insurance
citation not written. Having dealt with a no insurance citation in my
youth, a no insurance citation is like a $280 ticket, plus a mandatory
court appearance, and mandatory SR-22 insurance (which is FREAKY
expensive). I assume you can possibly tell I am livid by this outcome.
Just a follow up...

The reporting officer called me back this morning and we chatted about
my concerns. He was very pleasant and understanding.

The officer said that the "hit and run" is reported in the Police's
internal database, but does not show up on the "DI 9" report because
that report is mostly for statistical reasons. He also said that he
would file the "hit and run" citation at my request.

As far as the lack of no insurance citation, he let me know that the
report does show that her insurance was unknown, but since the vehicle
was just purchased and the owners have 30 days to obtain insurance, he
has no way of proving that she didn't have insurance. But by the fact
that it was reported on the report, she has 10 days to prove to the
state that she has insurance, or she will get a suspended license, and
be required to get the SR-22 insurance. I felt much better knowing that
the state would be still perusing her lack of insurance.

Honestly, I surely hope that she does end up having insurance, as that
will make life much easier than having to take her to court to recoup
the costs!

Kenneth


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Jonathan Duncan
2007-08-22 16:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Burgener
The reporting officer called me back this morning and we chatted about
my concerns. He was very pleasant and understanding.
The officer said that the "hit and run" is reported in the Police's
internal database, but does not show up on the "DI 9" report because
that report is mostly for statistical reasons. He also said that he
would file the "hit and run" citation at my request.
As far as the lack of no insurance citation, he let me know that the
report does show that her insurance was unknown, but since the vehicle
was just purchased and the owners have 30 days to obtain insurance, he
has no way of proving that she didn't have insurance. But by the fact
that it was reported on the report, she has 10 days to prove to the
state that she has insurance, or she will get a suspended license, and
be required to get the SR-22 insurance. I felt much better knowing that
the state would be still perusing her lack of insurance.
Honestly, I surely hope that she does end up having insurance, as that
will make life much easier than having to take her to court to recoup
the costs!
It is a lame situation. I hope it works out for you. I think it is
good that you talked with the officer about it. I think you should
talk with anyone involved that you can in order to get it worked
out. Communication is a powerful tool.

Jonathan



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